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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) simple plan against the Pirc? (Read 25131 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #47 - 09/23/14 at 10:52:34
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #46 - 11/19/11 at 10:49:53
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Hello,

our original moveorder has been 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6, so this way the Pirc is a very seldom sideline in OP's repertoire. Maybe it is reasonable to avoid it.

3.Bd3 or even 3.Nd2 are options not covered in Vigus great book about the Pirc. Idea is to vary as soon as possible, stay flexible, deny Black targets, restrict the Bg7 with c3 and play a game of chess ala Ruy Lopez starting at move 3.

With 1.d4 d6 Black wants to play on his homeground early on, after the third move it could be White's homeground.

Sources:
Kaufman: The Chess Advantage in Black and White (Only after 1...g6 moveorder, because he doesn't like  1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 d5 =
for White) I would analyze this line a little further and look if you like the resulting endgames.

Barsky's book about the Philidor (this is a Black repertoire book):
He argues that after 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Bd3 Black is in danger to get a passive position. 3...c5 transposes to a good c3 Sicilian, so he thinks 3...e5 is obligatory. Barsky analyses 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 Bg7 in some depth.

3.Nd2 is also covered by Barsky. It looks ridicolous, but at least it avoids Kaufman's equalising line after 3.Bd3. It can transpose to 3.Bd3, but you lose some transpositions to good KID after 3.Nd2. Barsky analyses 3...g6 and 3...e5, so his book could be a starting point for White. He mentions Rublevsky, Godena, Dvoirys and Zagrebelny as strong players using 3.Nd2.

Btw:
If you play 3.Nc3 don't underestimate the Philidor:

3.Nc3 e5 or 3.Nc3 Nd7 ?! intending 4...e5.
Barsky wrote one book about 1.d4 d6 and one book about 1.e4 d6 aiming for the Philidor. So after your moveorder you have an increased probability to get one.
There are some games with  Black winning very quickly, if White misplays 3.Nc3 e5 4.dxe5...




  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #45 - 11/15/11 at 21:49:33
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Of course! I was only looking at the 6 ...Nfd7 lines, which is the Vaisser-Palac-line. In this one, 16. Nd5! seems like a killer for White.

The Austrian attack must for sure be a critical line.

Thanks for your answer!
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #44 - 11/15/11 at 21:05:56
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Hi "fling",

I checked my analysis and see no problems for Black in the 5...o-0 6.e5 line:

[Event ""]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Pirc, Austrian Attack early e5"]
[Black "4. f4 Lg7 5.Sf3 0-0 6. e5"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B09"]
[Annotator ""]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[SourceDate "2008.07.24"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 O-O 6. e5 dxe5 7. dxe5 (7. fxe5
Nd5 8. Bc4 Nb6 9. Bb3 Nc6 10. Be3 Na5 11. Qe2 Nxb3 12. axb3 f6 13. O-O c6) 7...
Qxd1+ 8. Kxd1 Rd8+ (8... Nh5 $5 9. Be3 (9. Bc4 Bg4 10. Ke1 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Nc6
12. Be3 e6 13. Ne4 Bh6 14. Ng5 Bxg5 15. fxg5 Nxe5 16. Be2 Ng7 $11) (9. Ke1 Nc6
10. Be3 Bg4 11. Kf2 f6 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nd5 e6 14. Nxc7 Rac8 15. Nb5 Be7 16.
c3 a6 17. Nbd4 Nxd4 18. Bxd4 Nxf4 19. Rd1 Rcd8 $15) 9... Bg4 10. Be2 Nc6 11.
Ke1 f6 12. exf6 Bxf6 13. Nd5 Bxb2 14. Rb1 e6 15. Nxc7 Rac8 16. Nb5 Bg7 $11) 9.
Bd3 Ne8 10. Ke2 Nc6 11. Be4 f6 $11 *

This is what I saved in my repertoire database. Hope this helps.

Regarding the other variations:
- g3-Variation: I agree with you also I see no probems for Black in most of the lines
- 4.Be3 + 5.Qd2: I donīt think, Black can play the 4...Bg7-Line as mentioned in the Dangerous Weapon-book. Didnīt find any good variation/defense for Black in the line after 0-0-0,f3 and direct Bh6 of White. So, Black should play 4...c6
- 4.Bg5: Has its venom but Black should be ok
-Classical and acc classical: Should be also ok for Black but Black nedds to know how he can create counterplay
- Austrian Attack: My opinion is that this is the critical variation for Black
  
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fling
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #43 - 11/15/11 at 20:01:36
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 13:44:11:
So is there a low-maintenance method white can play against the pirc? I don't mind if Black has a way of equalising, as long as I have a space advantage and a simple plan that can be followed through.


I think that the g3-variation could fit this description too, right?

As far as the Austrian attack goes, is there any improvement known on Vaisser-Palac, 2000, in the 5... 0-0 variation?
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #42 - 07/21/11 at 22:55:31
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/20/11 at 00:31:17:
Everything has to be taken seriously in the Pirc. That's another reason it's not that popular.


I like this as an explanation.

The 4. Bg5 line is a lot more fun for White than Black, even if it isn't a clear edge for White in any particular line.  The idea is to play f4, Qd2 and castle long, but there's nothing forcing White to put pieces anywhere (except Bd3, and Black has to spend tempi on c7-c6 and b7-b5 to even force that).
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #41 - 07/20/11 at 10:35:16
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Bibs wrote on 07/20/11 at 01:05:49:
One of the lines, kinda yes. As I found out v Nakamura.
One of the lines, no.

It remains an outstanding book.


Please, can you explain a bit more about these lines?
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #40 - 07/20/11 at 01:05:49
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Fllg wrote on 07/19/11 at 17:04:32:
Stigma wrote on 07/19/11 at 11:36:16:
I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!


Is something wrong with the treatment given by Vigus in "The Pirc in Black and White"?

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 c6 6.Qd2 b5 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.0-0 Qb6 10.Ne2 he gives 10... c5! while 10... e5 looks interesting too. Of course there are other possibilities for both sides but it is my impression that Black has enough counterplay here.

But you are certainly right that 4.Bg5 has to be taken as serious as 4.Be3 or 4.f4.


One of the lines, kinda yes. As I found out v Nakamura.
One of the lines, no.

It remains an outstanding book.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #39 - 07/20/11 at 00:31:17
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Everything has to be taken seriously in the Pirc. That's another reason it's not that popular.
  

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FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #38 - 07/19/11 at 17:04:32
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Stigma wrote on 07/19/11 at 11:36:16:
I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!


Is something wrong with the treatment given by Vigus in "The Pirc in Black and White"?

After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.f4 c6 6.Qd2 b5 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Nf3 Bg4 9.0-0 Qb6 10.Ne2 he gives 10... c5! while 10... e5 looks interesting too. Of course there are other possibilities for both sides but it is my impression that Black has enough counterplay here.

But you are certainly right that 4.Bg5 has to be taken as serious as 4.Be3 or 4.f4.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #37 - 07/19/11 at 11:36:16
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The viability of the Classical Pirc for White depends very much on playing strength IMHO. Some of the easiest wins I've had in the Pirc are against weaker players choosing the (Be2) Classical to avoid sharp theory, allowing Black's slow ...b5 break and then getting positionally outplayed.

So the Classical shouldn't just be played on a whim; White should be familiar with the best plans for both sides and some theory, and ideally be a decent positional player himself.

I see the party line repeated here that the Austrian and 4.Be3 are the critical lines against the Pirc. I don't understand why 4.Bg5 as played by Tiviakov, Nakamura, Motylev etc. isn't on that list, since it looks very critical to me. I'm just thankful it isn't played more often (against me or in general)!
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #36 - 07/19/11 at 00:56:59
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One advantage of classical is that black is basically playing for draw and getting anything better than worse endgame is huge achievement.
In all those f3-g4 lines and in Austrain black gets interesting play which they are usually more familiar with than white player.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #35 - 07/19/11 at 00:33:00
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:56:28:
3. I thought that the Pirc was in some trouble theoretically, both in the Austrian and the more professional Be3 lines.  If not, why does White score so heavily in the line and why doesn't anyone at a high level play it OTB?


The Austrian remains the acid test, but even there it's not clear black's doing all that poorly.

Black is harder to play in general due to the flexibility required (whereas white is usually playing the same moves in slightly different orders which can often necessitate dramatically different responses), requires more accuracy, and his best moves are often counterintuitive.

Why play that when black has so many other options against 1. e4 that are promising without the drama? That's where the answer lies for titled players.

And oh yeah - statistics really don't mean jack. A line can be at 90% in 10 games, but the one loss could be the only one with actual theoretical importance.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #34 - 07/18/11 at 22:04:31
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:56:28:
get an idea when to develop the Ng1, when to play f2-f3, when to castle (and where).

When to play f2-f3 is easy: when Black castles Kingside. Avoid 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.f3 though because of 6...e5 and evt. 6...c5. Accurate is 6.0-0-0 and 7.f3.
To cut down on theory White may eventually also consider answering ...c6 with f2-f3. Eg 4...c6 5.f3 (or even 5.Qd2 first) Bg7 (5...Qb6 6.Qc1 and I am not convinced that Qb6 is better placed than Qc1; 5...b5 6.Qd2 Nbd7 and there are one or two lines in which Black benefits from not having played Bg7 yet) 6.Qd2 b5 but I still think this is equal. It's by far not a sterile equality; usually some patient manoeuvring is required. As I already wrote White's biggest problem is to find good squares for Ng1 and Bf1.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #33 - 07/18/11 at 16:56:28
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1. Kasparov-Topalov wasn't relevant to theory when it was played; both players were trying to avoid critical lines.
2. Given that we're looking for a line for a non-master, it's hard not to propose just hacking away with Be3/Qd2/h2-h4-h5.  Playing the line a lot, and analyzing afterwards, is a good way to get an idea when to develop the Ng1, when to play f2-f3, when to castle (and where).  You have two plans:
a. Mate Black on the h file (or on e8 if he doesn't castle).
b. Take advantage of Black's Queenside pawn weaknesses and lack of central space.
3. I thought that the Pirc was in some trouble theoretically, both in the Austrian and the more professional Be3 lines.  If not, why does White score so heavily in the line and why doesn't anyone at a high level play it OTB?
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #32 - 07/05/11 at 11:37:45
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MNb wrote on 07/05/11 at 10:41:33:
Did you expect me to publish my complete research on this variation or something? In this thread?
Anyhow, after 7...h5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.f4 Bb7 pawn e4 is a weakness. See eg Sveshnikov-Zakharevich RUSch 2001. I have to agree with Finkel that "Black has very comfortable equality and White is the one to be careful to keep the position balanced" after move 12. Alas.
Maybe 7.h4 is to be preferred as after Nbd7 8.g4 h5 9.g5 the Knight has to go to an inferior square, but Black has other options of course.


10. Nf3 is probably better than 10. Bg2 chosen in the game you mentioned. Despite initial engine optimism the position is still just unclear, and in correspondence games black hasn't done all that great, ie: Popelka (2146)- Pytlik (2403), E-Mail 2006 (1-0) being the most recent I'm aware of.

So like I said, it's not that simple. Do I agree that black should be okay? Yes. However, that's a different issue from ...b5 =. I'd call it unclear if anything else.

Quote:
You can say the same of Black.


Which is also true in the ...Qa5 variation as well. If anything it means black, at the minimum, has alternatives.

Quote:
I don't think I claimed that. I claimed that this variation is critical, not the game you mentioned on the previous page.


The game I mentioned on the previous page does represent one of the critical lines. Obviously Nf3 and Bh6 are other ones, it's not much of a disagreement given openings usually have multiple key lines.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #31 - 07/05/11 at 10:41:33
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 05:04:55:
The main lines with 7. g4 are extremely complicated, calling it just "=" is a substantial overstatement.

Did you expect me to publish my complete research on this variation or something? In this thread?
Anyhow, after 7...h5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.f4 Bb7 pawn e4 is a weakness. See eg Sveshnikov-Zakharevich RUSch 2001. I have to agree with Finkel that "Black has very comfortable equality and White is the one to be careful to keep the position balanced" after move 12. Alas.
Maybe 7.h4 is to be preferred as after Nbd7 8.g4 h5 9.g5 the Knight has to go to an inferior square, but Black has other options of course.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 05:04:55:
White has very real chances to try for an edge in the critical lines with 7. g4 due to the extremely complex resulting positions.

You can say the same of Black.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 05:04:55:
It's an area for investigation, but definitely isn't one to put off black from the entire concept.

I don't think I claimed that. I claimed that this variation is critical, not the game you mentioned on the previous page.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #30 - 07/05/11 at 10:29:06
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@ BPaulsen

Thank you for the game score. Actually I find these f3, g4-g5, f4 plans a bit scary for Black.

In the past I thought 6.Bh6 to be critical, too. But nowadays after 6... Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 9.Nge2 cxd4 10.Nxd4 Nc6 itīs known that Black has a decent Sicilian structure. Here it is clearly an advantage to be able to castle queenside with Black.

It might be interesting to compare this with 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 c5. Here I believe White is slightly better after 8.d5 Qa5 (not best, perhaps). Now Vigus gives 9.h4 as critical but I like 9.Nf3 when taking on e4 is to dangerous (9... Nxe4 10.0-0-0 intending Ng5 and h4-h5) and 9... Ng4 (otherwise Ng5 comes) 10.Qh4 looks pleasant for White.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #29 - 07/05/11 at 10:02:19
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The above mentioned (Roumen) Tashkov is a good friend of mine (we leave in the same town). He plays Pirc/Modern (his main weapon along with KID, too..) since he was a kid (and now he's 49). All these years I've been trying to fight against his pets (Pirc/KIDs) OTB or in corrs. Hard mission!..
As long as I know the most unpleasant setup for him as the second player is the classical one. The problem is that I'm not Karpov though.  Roll Eyes
Edit: Since gwnn wants a simple plan for white then I recommend him the classical. After all, if not playing like Karpov...at least we can try.  Cool
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #28 - 07/05/11 at 05:04:55
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MNb wrote on 07/05/11 at 04:33:32:
Sure White has many options after 6...b5 and sure that famous Kasparov-Topalov is not the final word and sure White has many other options. None of them promises White even an edge. I wish it would or I would return to 4.f3 immediately (I gave it up when I realised that 4.Be3 is more precise).


The main lines with 7. g4 are extremely complicated, calling it just "=" is a substantial overstatement. White has very real chances to try for an edge in the critical lines with 7. g4 due to the extremely complex resulting positions.

Quote:
After 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1 White is better prepared for Black's counterplay on the queenside. With the Black King in the centre it isn't a problem that the manoeuvring is slow. The important thing is that White finds good squares for both Knights.


That entire plan is ineffective - black plays b5, Nbd7, Qc7, and white's entire maneuver will ultimately serve as the main source of black's counterplay (the Nb3 isn't just out of play - it's a target). Hallier-Tashkov, E-Mail 2000 is a good example of how little white's entire plan does.

Quote:
6...b5 asks the question what White is going to do with those pieces on the kingside.


White's not compelled to do anything immediate with those pieces, preferring to push pawns. 7. g4 h5 8. g5 Nfd7 9. f4 being extremely common, which gives white more typical placement options for the Ng1/Bf1.

Quote:
White's play can be improved too.


The "improvement" on move 13 (tested in Geller-Zakharevich, St. Peterburg 2002) is also =+. The entire idea white employed beginning on move 9 is plainly inferior, leaving 8. Bd3 to preference given there's nothing special about 8. 0-0-0 if e5 doesn't work.

Quote:
Well, that is my general evaluation too. In Dangerous Weapons Vigus seems to agree that this is critical (and not 6.Nf3 or 6.f3). He might have changed his mind since then; after all this is difficult stuff.


It's an area for investigation, but definitely isn't one to put off black from the entire concept. I've experimented at length against Houdini trying to prove an edge of some sort (engine or human recognized) and it's not happening yet.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #27 - 07/05/11 at 04:53:33
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I'm accustomed to seeing the 6...c6 Classical considered as leading to = or unclear with best play; below is one game which has been so cited.  In his Informant notes Browne (a rather accomplished player of the Classical by the way) gave 17...Nxe4 18. Nxe5 Re8!.

[Event "Estes Park ch-USA"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Browne, Walter Shawn"]
[Black "Rohde, Michael A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "PU 16.11.10"]
[ECO "B08"]
[PlyCount "117"]

1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 O-O 6. O-O c6 7. h3 Nbd7 8. a4 e5 9.
dxe5 dxe5 10. Be3 Qe7 11. Qd3 Nh5 12. Rfd1 Nf4 13. Qd6 Nxe2  14. Nxe2 Bf6 15. Qxe7
Bxe7 16. Nd2 Nc5 17. Nc4 f6 18. Nc3 Be6 19. Nd6 b6 20. a5 Rfd8 21. Bxc5 bxc5 22.
Nb7 Rd4 23. Na4 Rc4 24. c3 Rxa4 25. Rxa4 a6 26. b4 cxb4 27. cxb4 Bb3 28. Rd7 Bxa4
29. Rxe7 Rb8 30. f3 Bc2 31. Kf2 f5 32. Ke3 f4  33. Kf2 Bb3 34. h4 Bc4 35. g3 h6 36.
gxf4 exf4 37. Kg2 Kf8 38. Rc7 Bf7 39. Nd6 Be6 40. Nb7 Bf7 41. Kf2 g5 42. hxg5 hxg5
43. Kg2 Bh5 44. Rh7 Bf7 45. Nd6 Bg8 46. Rc7 Be6 47. Nb7 Ba2 48. Nc5 Rxb4 49. Kh3
Rb5 50. Rxc6 Ke7 51. Kg4 Bf7 52. Kxg5 Be8 53. Re6  Kf7 54. Rf6  Ke7 55. Re6  Kf7
56. Re5 Rxa5 57. Kxf4 Ra3 58. Nb7 Bc6 59. Nd8  1-0
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #26 - 07/05/11 at 04:42:04
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punter wrote on 07/05/11 at 02:33:02:
So what's the setup which supposedly gives black good play against classical ?

I can't really give a 100% sure answer, but I guess Black has to look at c6/Nbd7/Qc7. It seems that the Norwood plan (White plays a2-a4-a5, Black answers with Rb8 and b5) is promising. If White only plays a2-a4 Black has ...b6 and ...Bb7 connecting the rooks before playing e7-e5.
White has tons of other options of course, so don't flame me if White has something promising here as well. I mean, Black doesn't want to know what Karpov's score is with the Classical.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #25 - 07/05/11 at 04:33:32
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Sure White has many options after 6...b5 and sure that famous Kasparov-Topalov is not the final word and sure White has many other options. None of them promises White even an edge. I wish it would or I would return to 4.f3 immediately (I gave it up when I realised that 4.Be3 is more precise).
After 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1 White is better prepared for Black's counterplay on the queenside. With the Black King in the centre it isn't a problem that the manoeuvring is slow. The important thing is that White finds good squares for both Knights. Actually in this particular case 8.e5 is to be investigated, but that doesn't affect my general point.
6...b5 asks the question what White is going to do with those pieces on the kingside. I know from experience that finding good squares for them can be very hard - much harder than after 6...Qa5 7.Nge2 b5 8.Nc1.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/05/11 at 02:04:29:
The particular example you cite is actually worse for white despite white winning that game. The way the game went black could've just won a pawn with a better position to boot.

White's play can be improved too.

Quote:
8.Bd3 is white's best, but it is far from clear whether an edge is possible.

Well, that is my general evaluation too. In Dangerous Weapons Vigus seems to agree that this is critical (and not 6.Nf3 or 6.f3). He might have changed his mind since then; after all this is difficult stuff.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #24 - 07/05/11 at 02:33:02
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So what's the setup which supposedly gives black good play against classical ?
It seems that c6, Qc7 and going for e5 is popular but imo it's almost +/- with no risk of ever losing. I find the plan with a5, Na6-b4 best but again only white can play for anything there although it' for sure not simple to win.
The plan with Nc6 isn't played that much anymore I believe. Any other options ?

I also very much like 4.Nf3 5.h3 and 6.Be3 (again intending to go a4 if black plays c6 and take on e5 if blacks go for that). Maybe I am biased towards white in typical pirc endgame but if could got such position after opening every time I wouldn't ever study another line.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #23 - 07/05/11 at 02:04:29
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MNb wrote on 07/04/11 at 23:03:10:
After 6.f3 Black's best is b5, which is equal. Topalov did not lose his famous Wijk aan Zee game because of the opening.


That game was not the final word on 6. f3 b5 (Kasparov's 7th move isn't even the main line), Vigus did a lot of analysis on it and it's not that clear. White has a lot of options, and it's not clear b5 is something black always wants.

Quote:
In general White has serious problems with activating Bf1, Ng1 and Rh1
After 6.f3 Qa5 White should prefer 7.Nge2. Transferring this Knight to b3 solves two problems for White: the weakness a2 after castling queenside and the development of the kingside (compare 6...b5).


Nge2-c1-b3 is too slow and allows a timed ...b5 to generate sufficient counterplay. It doesn't have any independent significance that promises white anything.

Quote:
After 6.Nf3 Qa5 Black can prevent White from castling queenside; play will be similar to the Classical when the question arises if Qa5 is optimally placed. So here I agree.


Okay.

Quote:
Instead of 6.f3 or 6.Nf3 White's most ambitious move is 6.Bh6 at once. This exchange fits both in a setup with f3 and with Nf3. It is most precise to leave the choice open for a while. After 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 or 8.o-o-o a very complicated game begins. Black's King will be stuck in the centre for a while, but it's not clear if White can mobilize enough pieces for an attack. Sometimes I think White can prove an edge, sometimes I think Black can equalize with accurate play. One example is Chiburdanidze-Piket, London 1985.


The particular example you cite is actually worse for white despite white winning that game. The way the game went black could've just won a pawn with a better position to boot.

8. Bd3 is white's best, but it is far from clear whether an edge is possible.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #22 - 07/04/11 at 23:03:10
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/04/11 at 20:08:09:
One of the critical lines (in my opinion) was tested in Filipchenko-Brinkmann, E-Mail 2009 and black held the balance without much issue. Black can use the Qa5 set-up regardless of whether white plays a set-up with f3 or Nf3.

(4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3/Nf3 Qa5)

I disagree that this line is critical for several reasons.
After 6.f3 Black's best is b5, which is equal. Topalov did not lose his famous Wijk aan Zee game because of the opening. In general White has serious problems with activating Bf1, Ng1 and Rh1
After 6.f3 Qa5 White should prefer 7.Nge2. Transferring this Knight to b3 solves two problems for White: the weakness a2 after castling queenside and the development of the kingside (compare 6...b5).
After 6.Nf3 Qa5 Black can prevent White from castling queenside; play will be similar to the Classical when the question arises if Qa5 is optimally placed. So here I agree.
Instead of 6.f3 or 6.Nf3 White's most ambitious move is 6.Bh6 at once. This exchange fits both in a setup with f3 and with Nf3. It is most precise to leave the choice open for a while. After 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 or 8.o-o-o a very complicated game begins. Black's King will be stuck in the centre for a while, but it's not clear if White can mobilize enough pieces for an attack. Sometimes I think White can prove an edge, sometimes I think Black can equalize with accurate play. One example is Chiburdanidze-Piket, London 1985.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #21 - 07/04/11 at 21:38:53
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Fllg wrote on 07/04/11 at 21:27:03:
Hm, I do not feel comfortable combining 4... Bg7 with an early c6 but perhaps Vigus is right that Black is okay here. Maybe I will take another look at this and the line 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 as analysed by Vigus in "Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc and Modern".

Would you mind giving the score of Filipchenko-Brinkmann? I canīt find it.


I got the date on that game wrong, it was 2008.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 Bg7 5. f3 c6 6. Qd2 Qa5 7. g4 h5 8. g5 Nfd7 9. f4 d5 10. f5 dxe4 11. fxg6 fxg6 12. Nxe4 Qxd2+ 13. Nxd2 0-0 14. Ngf3 Nb6 15. Nh4 Nd5 16. Bg1 Kh7 17. Bd3 Nf4 18. Be4 Bh3 19. Be3 Nd7 20. Ndf3 e5 21. 0-0-0 Bg4 22. dxe5 1/2-1/2
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #20 - 07/04/11 at 21:27:03
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Hm, I do not feel comfortable combining 4... Bg7 with an early c6 but perhaps Vigus is right that Black is okay here. Maybe I will take another look at this and the line 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 as analysed by Vigus in "Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc and Modern".

Would you mind giving the score of Filipchenko-Brinkmann? I canīt find it.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #19 - 07/04/11 at 20:08:09
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Fllg wrote on 07/04/11 at 20:02:07:
Btw, this...
...is an interesting statement. I thought the line which gives Black the biggest headache in the Pirc is the flexible 4.Be3. I do not feel totally comfortable here with Black which is one reason why I prefer the "Modern" move order to have more options like a6 or c6.


4. Be3 is another critical line, but black's set-up with c6/Qa5 (Vigus mentions it) is very complicated/unclear. One of the critical lines (in my opinion) was tested in Filipchenko-Brinkmann, E-Mail 2009 and black held the balance without much issue. Black can use the Qa5 set-up regardless of whether white plays a set-up with f3 or Nf3.

(4. Be3 Bg7 5. Qd2 c6 6. f3/Nf3 Qa5)
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #18 - 07/04/11 at 20:02:07
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Btw, this...

BPaulsen wrote on 07/02/11 at 21:12:00:
Being brutally honest I'm not aware of any clear edge against the Pirc as it is, with only the Austrian represe.nting something of an acid test that really holds black's feet to the fire, theoretically speaking. Against everything else, as far as I can see, black can pick an unclear fight.


...is an interesting statement. I thought the line which gives Black the biggest headache in the Pirc is the flexible 4.Be3. I do not feel totally comfortable here with Black which is one reason why I prefer the "Modern" move order to have more options like a6 or c6.

But after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 I think transposing to the Pirc is objectively best.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #17 - 07/04/11 at 19:35:39
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In my view the Classical is the least threatening line for Black. I wouldnīt play it as White and am happy to face it with Black but itīs also the most solid line and can be played with minimal preparation.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #16 - 07/04/11 at 19:20:27
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Classical (Nf3, Be2, 0-0, a5 every time black goes c6) is imo very pleasant for white. No weaknesses, all endgames being better and not much theory to remember. It's also the mainline vs pirc in computer chess which makes it probably the most sound variation out there.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #15 - 07/02/11 at 23:05:13
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 19:05:20:
Four pawns attack.

And you don't like 2.c4 e5 I suppose.
Well, here is the dilemma. If you want to prove an advantage you either have to play the Austrian Attack 1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 or the Argentinean/150 Attack 4.Be3. Both demand quite a lot of knowledge these days. If you want to cut on theory you have to give up that ambition. And like BPaulsen wrote, there is no guarantee that you actually wíll get that advantage, even with optimal play.

Now you don't really have the problem how to meet the Modern ánd avoid the KID, like 1.e4 players. The Averbach 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3 is logical for you. That gives you a little more choice against the Pirc.
A system that is quite dangerous here but not against the Modern is 4.Bg5. White still has the choice between a setup with f2-f4 and an Argentine-like Attack with f2-f3 and Qd2.
Another idea is 4.Nf3 (to avoid 4...h6) c6/Bg7 5.Bg5 and 6.Qd2 similar to the 150-Attack:

1) if Black castles, castle queenside, play Bh6 and storm with your h-pawn.
2) if Black doesn't (usually with ...c6 and ...b5), go for central pressure. You might consider castling queenside her too. Pomar-Larsen, Olympiade 1966 can be improved with the obvious 11.exf6.
3) Black's best is probably 5...h6 again. In practice White has done best with 6.Bf4 when Nc6 (not possible in case of 4...c6) looks critical.

You'll have to do your own work though. As far as I know nobody has written about this from White's point of view. The reason is probably that Bg5 is innocent against the Modern.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #14 - 07/02/11 at 21:12:00
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Being brutally honest I'm not aware of any clear edge against the Pirc as it is, with only the Austrian representing something of an acid test that really holds black's feet to the fire, theoretically speaking. Against everything else, as far as I can see, black can pick an unclear fight.

If you're being lazy, then the "Accelerated Classical" (5. h3/6. Be3) is a good choice. White gets a good enough position, black's equalizing line takes play into waters that offer play for both sides. If black doesn't play the right plan then he risks just getting blown off the board, which is useful for "rare lines".
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #13 - 07/02/11 at 20:59:42
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kylemeister wrote on 07/02/11 at 20:21:18:
JEH wrote on 07/02/11 at 19:58:21:
Why do you think that?


I was going by "All images and content found on this site are copyrights of Wolff Morrow and/or
Gambit Publications Ltd," and the fact that there is a Wolf Morrow who has a USCF rating of 1780.


OK, confusing of him to "copyright" Dzindi's work  Huh but I'd expect it was unintentional as he was doing a favour by re-hosting it.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #12 - 07/02/11 at 20:21:18
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JEH wrote on 07/02/11 at 19:58:21:
Why do you think that?


I was going by "All images and content found on this site are copyrights of Wolff Morrow and/or
Gambit Publications Ltd," and the fact that there is a Wolf Morrow who has a USCF rating of 1780.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #11 - 07/02/11 at 19:58:21
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kylemeister wrote on 07/02/11 at 16:47:34:
I have the impression it was written by a fellow rated in the 1700s.


Why do you think that? Can you be specific about what lines you think indicate this?

Fllg wrote on 07/02/11 at 16:34:56:
If this 12 page document is written by "Dzindzi" than the answer is probably no.   Undecided

But perhaps itīs not bad to get started...



Roman's analysis is the Pirc was discussed in this thread, http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1241662017

I too was a bit quick to jump on a Dzindzi bashing bandwagon,  but FirebrandX stuck up for his analysis and is what led to me recommending his line as a "quick fix". In reality there is no quick fix!

FirebrandX wrote on 05/09/09 at 05:56:58:
Bottom line, I have to admit the test is still on black to prove Roman isn't on to something here.
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #10 - 07/02/11 at 19:05:20
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Four pawns attack.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #9 - 07/02/11 at 18:27:33
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 13:44:11:
Semko Semkov thought that the best method against 1 d4 d6 is 2 e4! (his notation). I don't want to learn the classical KID from white (which black can make me play after 2 Nf3) so maybe I should try this.

What dó you play against the KID?
  

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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #8 - 07/02/11 at 16:47:34
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I have the impression it was written by a fellow rated in the 1700s.
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #7 - 07/02/11 at 16:34:56
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If this 12 page document is written by "Dzindzi" than the answer is probably no.   Undecided

But perhaps itīs not bad to get started...

  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #6 - 07/02/11 at 16:16:45
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In the other thread I see there was a suggestion of "classical ii" (Nf3 Be3 and h3) and a 12 page document, that seems like just right for the amount of effort I'd like to spend on this infrequent line. Does it work/does the author know what he's talking about?
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #5 - 07/02/11 at 16:08:49
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 16:03:53:
Can't I can just play 3 c4 against 2 .. g6 and play the 4 pawns attack against the KID (which I play)?


No doubt, though Black has other possibilities (and against most of them White can't/shouldn't play in Four Pawns vein).
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #4 - 07/02/11 at 16:03:53
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Can't I can just play 3 c4 against 2 .. g6 and play the 4 pawns attack against the KID (which I play)?

edit: yes I now found
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1305059529
kylemeister Smiley
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #3 - 07/02/11 at 15:55:40
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As White I wouldnīt rely on "Opening for White according to Anand 1.e4" when it comes to the Pirc since the lines choosen there donīt promise White much in the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.Bxd7+ when both Knight recaptures are fine im my opinion.

Here instead of 6.Bb5+ the capture 6.dxc5 is solid and may offer White a small advantage. The main line here goes 6... Qa5 7.Bd3 Qxc5 8.Qe2 Nc6 9.Be3 Qa5 10.0-0 Bg4 when White may try to drum up an attack with Qf2-h4, f4-f5 and Bh6.

Of course Black has other possibilities on move 5 (mainly 0-0 followed by Na6 or Nc6) and you have also to consider Black delaying Nf6 with 2... g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 a6!? (or c6/Nc6)
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #2 - 07/02/11 at 15:43:53
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I made the same suggestion the last time this sort of thing came up (though in that case I think someone was looking for a "quick fix" rather than a "simple plan").  I suppose the Classical might actually be regarded as a surprise weapon these days ...

Just a couple of tidbits:  after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 0-0 6. 0-0 c6 one way to play is 7. Re1 followed by e5, as was once recommended by Edmar Mednis.  Traditionally the main alternative to 6...c6 is 6...Bg4, whereupon 7. Be3 Nc6 8. d5 has been regarded by some sources as leading to an edge for White. 
  
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Re: simple plan against the Pirc?
Reply #1 - 07/02/11 at 14:00:37
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gwnn wrote on 07/02/11 at 13:44:11:
Semko Semkov thought that the best method against 1 d4 d6 is 2 e4! (his notation). I don't want to learn the classical KID from white (which black can make me play after 2 Nf3) so maybe I should try this. However, I also wouldn't like to learn a lot of theory (Semkov indeed offered the 400 page book on 1 e4 d6 according to Anand). So is there a low-maintenance method white can play against the pirc? I don't mind if Black has a way of equalising, as long as I have a space advantage and a simple plan that can be followed through. Sorry if this has been asked before.


Then the Classical Pirc might be for you - Nf3, Be2, 0-0, develop sensibly, see what happens.
  

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simple plan against the Pirc?
07/02/11 at 13:44:11
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Semko Semkov thought that the best method against 1 d4 d6 is 2 e4! (his notation). I don't want to learn the classical KID from white (which black can make me play after 2 Nf3) so maybe I should try this. However, I also wouldn't like to learn a lot of theory (Semkov indeed offered the 400 page book on 1 e4 d6 according to Anand). So is there a low-maintenance method white can play against the pirc? I don't mind if Black has a way of equalising, as long as I have a space advantage and a simple plan that can be followed through. Sorry if this has been asked before.
  
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