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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GPA problem (Read 9363 times)
Geck0
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #27 - 09/08/11 at 13:01:10
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MNb wrote on 07/19/11 at 21:42:15:
OrangeCounty wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:09:22:
You can also play 2 Nc3 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 to get to a Dragon, and 3 f4 Bg7 is fine as well.  Bf1-c4 is only good if Black plays ...d6, which weakens the e6 square and the diagonal of the Bc4 generally.  The response to Bf1-c4 should be ...e6 and ...d5,

Only a few months ago I would have entirely agreed with you. But the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 e6 6.f5 Nge7 7.fxe6 fxe6 8.d3 d5 9.Bb3 b5 10.o-o c4 11.dxc4 dxc4 12.Qxd8+ Nxd8 13.Nxb5 cxb3 14.axb3 is not so clear and maybe even favours White.


1) fling's statement is correct. Current theory evaluates the sacrifice to be highly complicated, yet favorable for black. Depending whether white flicks in the pawn exchange, black recaptures with the knight or king, respectively. Of course, a well prepared (and highly energetic!) white player will enjoy the practical chances in this fuzzy position. Still, I would expect some preparation by the second player If he directly aims at this position.

2) In the fxe6 line, there is also the idea for black to overtake the black squares by h6!?-g5 + Sg6 (omitting d7-d5), which prevents white from its standard black-square routine (Qe1-Qh4-Bg5/h6 etc...). The white squares weakened in this process are not easy to exploit for white as the c4-bishop cannot leave towards the b1-h7 diagonal.

3) There is also the dxe6 line, which typically runs smooth for white (he does not have to be worried about getting a worse position right out of the opening, which can happen after ..fxe6), but black has a very reliable position and despite some propaganda, apparently there is no advantage for white.

4) And of course! there are also other lines. Smiley

As a dragon player, you might enjoy the d6+Nf6 variations more than the "critical" e6-Nge7 ones. After all, this was Anands choice when he was surprised by the GPA way back.

Regarding 2...d6: As white has already played Nc3, you will not get any Maroczy-related troubles by playing 2...g6 immediately, which is what I recommend.

  

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fling
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #26 - 07/20/11 at 20:12:19
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MNb wrote on 07/20/11 at 19:50:54:
So with the pawns still on e4 and e6 the manoeuvre Nc3-e4-c5 is not available. Still 12...Kxd8 13.Nxb5 cxb3 14.axb3 doesn't lose like 10.exd5 and 13...Nxd8 does.


That is true. This looks pretty complicated and White for sure has practical chances, but Black must be better.
  
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MNb
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #25 - 07/20/11 at 19:50:54
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So with the pawns still on e4 and e6 the manoeuvre Nc3-e4-c5 is not available. Still 12...Kxd8 13.Nxb5 cxb3 14.axb3 doesn't lose like 10.exd5 and 13...Nxd8 does.
  

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Re: GPA problem
Reply #24 - 07/20/11 at 19:31:18
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MNb wrote on 07/20/11 at 11:08:33:
Compare 10.exd5 exd5 11.o-o and 13...Kxd8.
This is the point: having the pawns still on e4 and e6 benefits White.


But here I've learned that the correct move is 13 ...Nxd8! The point is that Black has d5 available. On the other hand, if 13 ...Kxd8, White has e4 available after 14. Rd1+ Bd7 15. Ne4 cxb3 16. Nc5

This is all according to Rogozenko. I don't know if there is any improvements for White, haven't checked for a while because I have stopped playing this variation as Black and instead favoured Botvinnik set-ups.
  
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MNb
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #23 - 07/20/11 at 11:08:33
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Compare 10.exd5 exd5 11.o-o and 13...Kxd8.
This is the point: having the pawns still on e4 and e6 benefits White.
  

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Re: GPA problem
Reply #22 - 07/19/11 at 22:09:05
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MNb wrote on 07/19/11 at 21:42:15:
OrangeCounty wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:09:22:
You can also play 2 Nc3 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 to get to a Dragon, and 3 f4 Bg7 is fine as well.  Bf1-c4 is only good if Black plays ...d6, which weakens the e6 square and the diagonal of the Bc4 generally.  The response to Bf1-c4 should be ...e6 and ...d5,

Only a few months ago I would have entirely agreed with you. But the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 e6 6.f5 Nge7 7.fxe6 fxe6 8.d3 d5 9.Bb3 b5 10.o-o c4 11.dxc4 dxc4 12.Qxd8+ Nxd8 13.Nxb5 cxb3 14.axb3 is not so clear and maybe even favours White.


But what about 12 ...Kxd8 ?
  
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MNb
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #21 - 07/19/11 at 21:42:15
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:09:22:
You can also play 2 Nc3 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 to get to a Dragon, and 3 f4 Bg7 is fine as well.  Bf1-c4 is only good if Black plays ...d6, which weakens the e6 square and the diagonal of the Bc4 generally.  The response to Bf1-c4 should be ...e6 and ...d5,

Only a few months ago I would have entirely agreed with you. But the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 e6 6.f5 Nge7 7.fxe6 fxe6 8.d3 d5 9.Bb3 b5 10.o-o c4 11.dxc4 dxc4 12.Qxd8+ Nxd8 13.Nxb5 cxb3 14.axb3 is not so clear and maybe even favours White.
  

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Re: GPA problem
Reply #20 - 07/19/11 at 20:20:46
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Actually, rated correspondence play (although not at a particularly high level).
  
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #19 - 07/19/11 at 19:01:43
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/19/11 at 18:09:22:
I see a lot of 2 Bc4 and 2 Nf3, 3 Bc4 lately.  I don't know why this is since it's nothing for White.


My guess is that this is because it lets White choose a line, rather than have to wait for what system Black chooses. I don't think it is such a good idea, though.
  
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #18 - 07/19/11 at 18:43:00
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When I see statements here on the order of "I see a lot of 2 Bc4 and 2 Nf3, 3 Bc4 lately" (and perhaps you don't mean 2...d6 3. Bc4), I always wonder, is this referring to internet blitz against people who don't play in tournaments, or the like?
  
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #17 - 07/19/11 at 18:09:22
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The reply to my post was correct, I was channelling the Closed, not the GPA (not that there aren't crossovers).  I always felt the GPA was just an attempt to play the Closed with more options for the Bf1 and an extra tempo or two, complicated by a looser position in the opening.

There are lines, though... need to go look them up.  Maybe they're in my notes to Anand-Gelfand...

You can also play 2 Nc3 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 to get to a Dragon, and 3 f4 Bg7 is fine as well.  Bf1-c4 is only good if Black plays ...d6, which weakens the e6 square and the diagonal of the Bc4 generally.  The response to Bf1-c4 should be ...e6 and ...d5, which wastes a move if ...d6 is played, so White is effectively a tempo up.

I'm a Taimanov/Scheveningen player, so I don't mind; I just play d7-d5 and the worst thing that can happen is an IQP.  Dragon and Najdorf players have the Anti-Sicilian lines tougher, because ...d6 isn't a good move.

I see a lot of 2 Bc4 and 2 Nf3, 3 Bc4 lately.  I don't know why this is since it's nothing for White.
  
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #16 - 07/11/11 at 01:52:08
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TopNotch wrote on 07/10/11 at 04:07:55:
JamesH wrote on 07/08/11 at 11:32:09:
Vass wrote on 07/08/11 at 11:15:43:
I don't see why you bother as long as you (as a Dragon player) can have a very good position after, say:
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. f4 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Bb5+ Bd7 6. Bc4 Nc6 7. O-O Na5!
1) 8. Be2 Nf6 9. d4 cxd4 10. Nxd4 O-O!? 11. Be3 Rc8!? 12. e5 Ne8 13. Nf3 Nc6 where white has to fight for equality;
2) 8. Bb3? c4!! 9. Ba4 b5 10. Nxb5 Qb6+ minus piece for white [-+]

And btw, never trust Dzindzhi! He's known for his waggery..  Wink


Kylemeister directed me to the carlsen -anand game where the game when 8.d3!? Nxc4 9.dxc4 Bxc3!? Anand seemed to like his radical play, so maybe this is fine for black.

I looked at the game Gelfand-Bartomleij for a reference to 8.Be2 and black also gets a good position.

The line given by Tops was 7.d3 as opposed to my original 7.0-0 , Dzinzdi isnt completely crazy! Wink. 7...b5 looks like the best but maybe white has something after the dynamic 8.e5!?
So maybe 7.d3 is a better way of playing where some lines are yet to be tested..


After 7.d3 Na5 (You left out this move in your post) 8.Bb3 b5 9.e5!? critical seems to be 9...Nh6 10..exd6 c4 11.dc4 bc4 12.Nd5 exd6 13.Qe2+ Kf8 14.Bxc4 Nxc4 15.Qxc4 Qe8+ With full compensation for the pawn. The position remains unclear but I would prefer Black here.

I found the Overdam vs Nikolic game where the dubious 8...Nxb3 was successfully employed, however this was just another case of GM outclassing amateur. That game continued 9.axb3 Nf6 10.0-0 0-0 11.Qe1 e6 Now White went strategically wrong with 12.e5 Ne8 when black was doing ok. Much more testing would have been the standard 12.Qh4 now 12...Ne8 would lose the a pawn after an exchange of queens, and if Black prepares this with 12...a6 then 13.f5 is very strong, intending 13...exf5 14.Bg5 with a powerful initiative.

Tops Smiley


Wow, a very double edged line! These moves look quite difficult to find OTB so I imagine white or black can deviate and still have an OK position.. I agree black has sufficient comp for the pawn , the engines seem to agree too!

Overall this ...Na5 should lead to equality, a little more analysis on these sharp lines and i'll be sorted Cheesy
  

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Re: GPA problem
Reply #15 - 07/10/11 at 08:39:07
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If you play the Dragon consider the move-order
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 search the forum for
earlier discussions.
  
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Re: GPA problem
Reply #14 - 07/10/11 at 04:07:55
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JamesH wrote on 07/08/11 at 11:32:09:
Vass wrote on 07/08/11 at 11:15:43:
I don't see why you bother as long as you (as a Dragon player) can have a very good position after, say:
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. f4 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Bb5+ Bd7 6. Bc4 Nc6 7. O-O Na5!
1) 8. Be2 Nf6 9. d4 cxd4 10. Nxd4 O-O!? 11. Be3 Rc8!? 12. e5 Ne8 13. Nf3 Nc6 where white has to fight for equality;
2) 8. Bb3? c4!! 9. Ba4 b5 10. Nxb5 Qb6+ minus piece for white [-+]

And btw, never trust Dzindzhi! He's known for his waggery..  Wink


Kylemeister directed me to the carlsen -anand game where the game when 8.d3!? Nxc4 9.dxc4 Bxc3!? Anand seemed to like his radical play, so maybe this is fine for black.

I looked at the game Gelfand-Bartomleij for a reference to 8.Be2 and black also gets a good position.

The line given by Tops was 7.d3 as opposed to my original 7.0-0 , Dzinzdi isnt completely crazy! Wink. 7...b5 looks like the best but maybe white has something after the dynamic 8.e5!?
So maybe 7.d3 is a better way of playing where some lines are yet to be tested..


After 7.d3 Na5 (You left out this move in your post) 8.Bb3 b5 9.e5!? critical seems to be 9...Nh6 10..exd6 c4 11.dc4 bc4 12.Nd5 exd6 13.Qe2+ Kf8 14.Bxc4 Nxc4 15.Qxc4 Qe8+ With full compensation for the pawn. The position remains unclear but I would prefer Black here.

I found the Overdam vs Nikolic game where the dubious 8...Nxb3 was successfully employed, however this was just another case of GM outclassing amateur. That game continued 9.axb3 Nf6 10.0-0 0-0 11.Qe1 e6 Now White went strategically wrong with 12.e5 Ne8 when black was doing ok. Much more testing would have been the standard 12.Qh4 now 12...Ne8 would lose the a pawn after an exchange of queens, and if Black prepares this with 12...a6 then 13.f5 is very strong, intending 13...exf5 14.Bg5 with a powerful initiative.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: GPA problem
Reply #13 - 07/09/11 at 21:19:54
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OrangeCounty wrote on 07/08/11 at 21:22:00:
I thought the ...g6, ...e6, ...Nge7 stuff was considered fine for Black on account of the option to play ...f5 first?  What is the problem for Black in this line?  You have ...Bd7 for free, and just push the Queenside pawns.


Not  sure about this ...f5 for black idea, ive seen it in the closed sicilian but not in the GPA, give me an example line?
Bd7 can be a problem as d6 is weak.
  

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