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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 290077 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #120 - 07/28/11 at 13:24:15
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Markovich wrote on 07/28/11 at 11:34:13:
MNb wrote on 07/28/11 at 03:49:49:
I'm not impressed by 10.b3 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd6.
Most challenging seems to be 10.0-0 [...] Black's only hope of survival are the opposite coloured Bishops (...Bxe5) combined with a light-square blockade.

This had been my thought exactly, so I'm happy to see you also think so.  [...]

To make sure that we can exclude 10.b3, I have looked at the two corr. games featuring this move. - I never studied 10.0-0. The games often include Bxe5 which creates opposite bishops. One of the key criteria for a good line will be that White must keep some heavy pieces on the board. Maybe 10.0-0 is better in this respect, but that's not the only factor. Anyway, in the following game we also see the opposite bishops in action:



The remaining game is a typical corr. win, where White tortures his opponent and gradually improves his position, while Black hasn't much to do. True: White's king would be safer on g1 than on c1, but here it is more important that White can push his king-side majority forward. - Playing 11...Bd6 first, as mentioned by MNb, seems to lead to the same or a similar position. Maybe 13...Re6 14.Qe3 Qe7 15.f4  Bxe5 16.Bxe5 Qa3+ is an alternative in the game, but both Kb1 and Bb2 are fine (+0.80).

So I believe that the tactical 10...Bxc2 is relevant. For more details see the comments included in the game. 12.Qc4+!? +/- looks risky at first, but may be best. In my opinion, White has a clear advantage. Without knowing much about the 80 games played with 10.0-0, this rare idea 10.b3 might be "good enough".
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #119 - 07/28/11 at 11:34:13
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MNb wrote on 07/28/11 at 03:49:49:
I'm not impressed by 10.b3 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd6.
Most challenging seems to be 10.0-0 0-0 11.d4 Bd6 indeed. Kramnik played 12.c3 but after Be6 had serious problems with Bc1. So I'd prefer 12.f4 and Black's only hope of survival are the opposite coloured Bishops (...Bxe5) combined with a light-square blockade.


This had been my thought exactly, so I'm happy to see you also think so.  My data base isn't handy to me just now, so      I have no idea if it's been tried, but I think that White after 12.f4 should aim for c4, Bd2-c3. Probably b3 is necessary.

But we need to examine what practice has been in this area.
  

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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #118 - 07/28/11 at 03:49:49
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I'm not impressed by 10.b3 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd6.
Most challenging seems to be 10.0-0 0-0 11.d4 Bd6 indeed. Kramnik played 12.c3 but after Be6 had serious problems with Bc1. So I'd prefer 12.f4 and Black's only hope of survival are the opposite coloured Bishops (...Bxe5) combined with a light-square blockade.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #117 - 07/28/11 at 00:33:12
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I am rather certain that 10...Bxc2 is bad.

After 10.O-O O-O 11.d4 I respectfully doubt Sokolov's claim that White will have trouble making progress. I used to play 5...Nf6 myself, and this is the line that caused me to drop it. I don't think that 6.Qe2 is nearly as troublesome for Black. We should look deeper, but under Principle 1, I would be reluctant to drop 6.Nxf6+.

10.b3 may be worth recommending as well.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #116 - 07/27/11 at 20:57:32
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Markovich wrote on 07/27/11 at 20:07:45:
Yeah, I guess it is about time to tackle 5...Nf6. And here I propose that 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 dxc6 9.Nxe5 Bf5 10.O-O! be our starting point, intending 10...O-O-O 11.d3 or 10...O-O 11.d4.

Maybe a good alternative: 10.b3!?, 100% in only two games: Weisenburger - Bissmann, corr. 2006 [jubilee tourn. of the German corr. federation]; and Bißmann (2357) -Arppi (2319), Baltic Sea Tournament 2008 (also a corr. tournament?). So it seems Bißmann was impressed by his loss in 2006! The PC gives (10.b3) Bxc2 11.Bb2 0-0 12.Rc1 Bf5, which also happened in the 2006 corr. game. Here 13.Nxc6 (+0.70 Ryb4) and 13.g4 (game) both look attractive.

I see that 10.0-0 was played by the elite only recently and scores a proud 72% in 86 games.

Fllg wrote on 07/27/11 at 20:39:42:
I remember this has been proposed by Emms in his fine book "Easy guido to the Ruy Lopez". He analysed the critical 10... Bxc2!? 11.d3 Ba4 12.b3 Bb5 13.Bb2 Qe6 14.Rfe1 when he wrote "there are still problems to solve". White threatens 15.Nxc6 here.

Sokolov considers Black to have enough compensation to hold after 10... 0-0 11.d4 Bd6 but only playing for a draw. On the other hand it is difficult to see how White can make progress. It´s at best a very very slight += due to the pawn up. There is more life in the lines after 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6 gxf6 8.d4 but here Black also has more counterplay.

Instead of 12.b3, the computer likes 12.Nf3 +- (2.00).
In the 10... 0-0 11.d4 Bd6 line, the database submits 77 games (67% for White). In the ten games between 2500+ players, White won 3 times, 7 games were drawn.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #115 - 07/27/11 at 20:39:42
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Markovich wrote on 07/27/11 at 20:07:45:
[quote author=01022E4C0 link=1311509071/113#113 date=1311791326]Yeah, I guess it is about time to tackle 5...Nf6. And here I propose that 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 dxc6 9.Nxe5 Bf5 10.O-O! be our starting point, intending 10...O-O-O 11.d3 or 10...O-O 11.d4.


I remember this has been proposed by Emms in his fine book "Easy guido to the Ruy Lopez". He analysed the critical 10... Bxc2!? 11.d3 Ba4 12.b3 Bb5 13.Bb2 Qe6 14.Rfe1 when he wrote "there are still problems to solve". White threatens 15.Nxc6 here.

Sokolov considers Black to have enough compensation to hold after 10... 0-0 11.d4 Bd6 but only playing for a draw. On the other hand it is difficult to see how White can make progress. It´s at best a very very slight += due to the pawn up. There is more life in the lines after 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6 gxf6 8.d4 but here Black also has more counterplay.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #114 - 07/27/11 at 20:07:45
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MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 18:28:46:
Markovich wrote on 07/27/11 at 16:17:36:
Thank you. However, now it seems we've lost the alternatives to 5...e4.

The line 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 is still there. My books only give 5...Nd4 as a third option, which just transposes (White plays 6.Nxe5). So I'm afraid I don't get you.

Is it time to crack the really tough nut, 5...Nf6, already?

I must've missed that, sorry. Yeah, I guess it is about time to tackle 5...Nf6. And here I propose that 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 dxc6 9.Nxe5 Bf5 10.O-O! be our starting point, intending 10...O-O-O 11.d3 or 10...O-O 11.d4.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #113 - 07/27/11 at 18:28:46
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Markovich wrote on 07/27/11 at 16:17:36:
Thank you. However, now it seems we've lost the alternatives to 5...e4.

The line 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 is still there. My books only give 5...Nd4 as a third option, which just transposes (White plays 6.Nxe5). So I'm afraid I don't get you.

Is it time to crack the really tough nut, 5...Nf6, already?
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #112 - 07/27/11 at 17:56:27
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 09:33:35:
Göran wrote on 07/27/11 at 08:51:21:
Please find the first version of 3..a5.

fling wrote on 07/27/11 at 06:29:05:
Actually, I have started looking at the Bird already (because I played against it Monday night), and ...a5 is a very interesting try in some of the lines there.

@Hacker: Excellent survey - you could straightaway change jobs and work for the editorial team of the NIC Yearbook. You only forgot "Use with caution - may hurt prejudices".

@fling: Yes. My Groteske Schacheröffnungen had a chapter on Bird's original concept: Nd4 [Nxd4] exd4, c6, d5 [exd5] cxd5 [Bb5+] Kf8! followed by a5 and h5-h4, which I liked very much. This experience was one of my main motivations to study 3...a5 4.0-0 Nd4.


Thanks for your kind feedback. I was aiming for Kaissiber however. I understand though I have to be in practise at NIC Yearbook first for some time before being promoted to Kaissiber.
  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #111 - 07/27/11 at 16:22:38
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 13:31:33:
However, White has the novelty 16.Nc7! +/-, e.g.

(a) 16...Qxg2 17.Rf1 Rb8 18.Qd7+ Be7 19.Qe6+ Kf8 20.b3 Qxh2 21.Qf5+ Bf6 22.Ne6+ +/-.

(b) 16...Rc8 17.h3 Qf5 18.g4 Qc5 (lesser evil: 18...Bc5 +/-) 19.Qd7+ Ne7 20.d4 exd3 21.0-0 +-.

Typo correction: For 18...Qc5 read: 18...Qf6.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #110 - 07/27/11 at 16:17:36
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MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 11:20:50:
I like 17.d4 exd3 18.Be3. Let's keep it.

After 11...Kd8 White perhaps can follow the same path as after 11...g6 ? I mean 11...Kd8 12.Qa5 (threatens something) Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4. Of course Rh8 is not en prise anymore, but 15...Qe7 looks quite ugly now. In the only game I found Black tried 15...Qg4 16.Qb6 Qxg2 17.Rf1 Nf6 18.Qxb7+ Be7 19.Nd6+ Ke6 20.Nf5+ Kxf5 21.Qxe7 Rhe8 22.Qd6 Qf3 and won, Rohde-Ritter, corr 1992. But White should be fine here, don't you think?



Thank you. However, now it seems we've lost the alternatives to 5...e4.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #109 - 07/27/11 at 16:12:37
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/27/11 at 13:31:33:
[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+]

MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 11:20:50:
11...Kd8 12.Qa5 (threatens something) Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4. Of course Rh8 is not en prise anymore, but 15...Qe7 looks quite ugly now. In the only game I found Black tried 15...Qg4 16.Qb6 Qxg2 17.Rf1 Nf6 18.Qxb7+ Be7 19.Nd6+ Ke6 20.Nf5+ Kxf5 21.Qxe7 Rhe8 22.Qd6 Qf3 and won, Rohde-Ritter, corr 1992. But White should be fine here, don't you think?

An excellent idea, clearly an improvement, and 13.Qe5+! is completely overlooked by Sokolov (who advises against Qa5!). I found two games Rohde - E. Ritter, corr. 1992 (0-1), and Kuhlmann - E. Ritter, corr. 1997 (drawn). In both games 16.Qb6 Qxg2? was played; correct would have been 16...Be7! unclear.

However, White has the novelty 16.Nc7! +/-, e.g.

(a) 16...Qxg2 17.Rf1 Rb8 18.Qd7+ Be7 19.Qe6+ Kf8 20.b3 Qxh2 21.Qf5+ Bf6 22.Ne6+ +/-.

(b) 16...Rc8 17.h3 Qf5 18.g4 Qc5 (lesser evil: 18...Bc5 +/-) 19.Qd7+ Ne7 20.d4 exd3 21.0-0 +-.

(c) 16...Rb8! 17.0-0 Nf6 18.c5 Qd7 19.Qc4+ Ke7 20.f3 Qxc7 21.fxe4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

For the sacrificed Knight c7, White has three pawns and a promising position. Maybe more can be proven, but += it certainly is.


That looks like good analysis to me. I looked more critical ideas for White and couldn't find any.
  

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MNb
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #108 - 07/27/11 at 14:16:33
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Good luck, TN!

FM Bücker (not Buecker) is certainly right that after 16.Qb6 Black should play the more precise Be7. Compare 17.Qxb7 Nf6 18.Nd4 and Black has avoided the transposition to the two corr. games, even if (s)he might not have entirely sufficient compensation. That's something I'm not going to find out because:
I like 16.Nc7 very much. If the Steinitz principle (hold on to your material) is not entirely satisfactory the defender should apply the Lasker principle (sac something back and generate lots of counterplay).  Smiley
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #107 - 07/27/11 at 14:01:05
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I won't be able to compile the analyses from most of the 1.e4 e5 Spanish threads into PGN form because I am busy preparing for major chess tournaments. However once my tournaments conclude I will be able to put more energy into the project.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #106 - 07/27/11 at 13:31:33
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[1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 dxe4 7.Nxc6 Qd5 8.c4 Qd6 9.Nxa7+ Bd7 10.Bxd7+ Qxd7 11.Qh5+]

MNb wrote on 07/27/11 at 11:20:50:
11...Kd8 12.Qa5 (threatens something) Ke8 13.Qe5+ Kf7 14.Nb5 c6 15.Qd4. Of course Rh8 is not en prise anymore, but 15...Qe7 looks quite ugly now. In the only game I found Black tried 15...Qg4 16.Qb6 Qxg2 17.Rf1 Nf6 18.Qxb7+ Be7 19.Nd6+ Ke6 20.Nf5+ Kxf5 21.Qxe7 Rhe8 22.Qd6 Qf3 and won, Rohde-Ritter, corr 1992. But White should be fine here, don't you think?

An excellent idea, clearly an improvement, and 13.Qe5+! is completely overlooked by Sokolov (who advises against Qa5!). I found two games Rohde - E. Ritter, corr. 1992 (0-1), and Kuhlmann - E. Ritter, corr. 1997 (drawn). In both games 16.Qb6 Qxg2? was played; correct would have been 16...Be7! unclear.

However, White has the novelty 16.Nc7! +/-, e.g.

(a) 16...Qxg2 17.Rf1 Rb8 18.Qd7+ Be7 19.Qe6+ Kf8 20.b3 Qxh2 21.Qf5+ Bf6 22.Ne6+ +/-.

(b) 16...Rc8 17.h3 Qf5 18.g4 Qc5 (lesser evil: 18...Bc5 +/-) 19.Qd7+ Ne7 20.d4 exd3 21.0-0 +-.

(c) 16...Rb8! 17.0-0 Nf6 18.c5 Qd7 19.Qc4+ Ke7 20.f3 Qxc7 21.fxe4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

For the sacrificed Knight c7, White has three pawns and a promising position. Maybe more can be proven, but += it certainly is.
  
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