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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 290076 times)
TN
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #210 - 08/18/11 at 15:45:11
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Please reply if you have any improvements for White or Black over my analyses!  Smiley
  

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TN
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #209 - 08/18/11 at 10:32:35
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Since there haven't been any posts here for a few days, here is some analysis I have done on the Cozio (3...Nge7). Unfortunately I am not able to find an advantage for White, but the file may still be of interest.

I don't think White has any edge at all in the main line starting with 4.c3, which is why I recommend we analyse 4.Nc3 until we reach some sort of consensus.
  

BeatingtheCozio.pgn ( 4 KB | Downloads )

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #208 - 08/14/11 at 22:15:24
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In the last diagram, White might soon play f3, threatening Ne4. Black will probably avoid it: d6-d5. Then after Bb2 it is difficult for Black not to exchange the bishops (even after Bf6-g5xd2, the two opposite bishops would be two very different animals: one placed on d4, the other sitting idle).

The PC says it is +0.61, so I am too lazy to study it in more detail now.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #207 - 08/14/11 at 18:28:12
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You are right, your 12.Nd2 looks stronger than my 12.Rb1. Then after 12...Bf5 13.Rb1 Kd7 14.b3 Rhe8+ 15.Kd1 Re7 (or 15...Bh4 16.g3) 16.Re1

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Black only has a slight initiative for the pawn.
But maybe Black might be able to keep the e-file open to hinder the white king reaching the king's side?
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #206 - 08/14/11 at 17:44:14
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 08/14/11 at 15:48:04:
Hello everybody,

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6 Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6, Stefan suggests 9.Qxe5 d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6 11.d3 0-0, and now 12.Nd2N. I wonder if Black has no better move than 11...0-0, as this might just be a waste of time (why would Black be in a hurry to bring the king to the king's side in this position?).

What about 11...Rb8 instead, with the following moves 12.Rb1 Be6 13.b3 and now 13...Bd5? [...]

The idea behind my proposal 12.Nd2 is to avoid the exchange Bc8-g4xf3. 11...Rb8 is interesting - 12.Rb1 Be6 13.b3 (13.Nd2? Bxa2 14.Ra1 Bxb2) 13...Bd5! illustrates that the demolition of White's structure (Bxf3) justifies even a big loss in time (moves Rb8, Be6-d5).

Thus White should prefer (11...Rb8) 12.Nd2, e.g. 12...Be6? 13.Ne4. On other moves 13.Rb1, as planned.

9.Qxe5 += isn't impressive, but since I don't believe in the alternatives, it still looks like the best solution.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #205 - 08/14/11 at 15:54:08
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My first thought is that between one and two tenths of a pawn could indeed be described as a very slight plus.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #204 - 08/14/11 at 15:48:04
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Hello everybody,

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6 Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6, Stefan suggests 9.Qxe5 d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6 11.d3 0-0, and now 12.Nd2N. I wonder if Black has no better move than 11...0-0, as this might just be a waste of time (why would Black be in a hurry to bring the king to the king's side in this position?).

What about 11...Rb8 instead, with the following moves 12.Rb1 Be6 13.b3 and now 13...Bd5?

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Houdini gives a slight plus for White (between + 0.1 and + 0.2), but from my point of view, Black threatens to give up the bishops pair with Bxf3, devaluating White's king's side majority, when Black in addition would have the half open f-file to play against the doubled pawns on f2 and f3. White's pawn structure on the queen's side also doesn't look so convincing.

So, I would give this position only a very slight plus for White, with a probable draw. What do stronger players than me think?

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #203 - 08/14/11 at 07:33:42
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:58:01:
Is there a member who has played the Jaenisch/Schliemann and has an opinion about these critical lines? We also could need some hints about the best available chess books on the topic. I have Khalifman, Sokolov, Greet, Flear ("Offbeat Spanish"), but e.g. Brunello ("Attacking the Spanish") seems to be missing. Are there older sources of some importance (I'll check Harding: Counter Gambits)? Is there any source a Jaenisch player swears on?


Actually, yes, me. Though my interest has always been 5...d5 rather than 5...Nf6, so I can't speak definitively on the latter.

As for books, Ivanov & Kulagin's book (Olbrich 1994) is the definitive tome (as mentioned by Markovich); Jimmy Adams' old Chess Player book (1982) has quite a bit of useful stuff culled from magazines in the pre-database era; then there's Tseitlin & Glazkov's (Maxwell 1991; now Everyman); Yudovich's "Spanish without ...a6" (Batsford 1986); even Shamkovich & Schiller's (Batsford 1983) is worth looking at (though it has more typos than any other chess book I've ever seen.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #202 - 08/13/11 at 18:58:59
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I have the Ivanov and Kulagin book, as well as the cheerfully optimistic Tseitlin volume that, if I recall correctly, occasionally cites Soviet games I couldn't locate on chessbase.

Alas, they are buried somewhere in the Attic.  I'll rummage around for them.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #201 - 08/13/11 at 17:59:34
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:58:01:
MNb wrote on 08/09/11 at 21:56:14:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6 Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 dxc6 9.Nxe5 O-O 10.b3 looks inconvenient after 10...Bd6 11.Bb2 Re8.
So 10.O-O and Black has avoided the b2-b3 idea, but abandoned the option to castle Queenside. After 9...O-O 10.O-O there are other moves than 10...Bf5 transposing, but I don't see how they should improve Black's chances. 10...Bd6 11.Nc4 looks good enough for at least some advantage (after 11.d4 c5 12.Be3 Bxe5 Queens will be exchanged, increasing Black's drawing chances).

In the case of 10.b3, there is also 10...Re8! 11.Bb2 Ba3 12.Bc3 Bd6 13.d4 c5 when the Bc3 is misplaced.

After 10.0-0 Bf5 we are back in a much-played line (thanks to Jon Tait for the valuable hint), but I fail to see a resilient defence for Black. It looks like White has all the chances for a win, and Black is almost helpless.

Interestingly, 10...Bd6 seems to be a tougher nut to crack, the reply 11.d4 (46 games) looks very drawish. I agree with MNb that 11.Nc4 (7 games) should be our choice, no doubt White has a plus here. But how much does he have?

Is there a member who has played the Jaenisch/Schliemann and has an opinion about these critical lines? We also could need some hints about the best available chess books on the topic. I have Khalifman, Sokolov, Greet, Flear ("Offbeat Spanish"), but e.g. Brunello ("Attacking the Spanish") seems to be missing. Are there older sources of some importance (I'll check Harding: Counter Gambits)? Is there any source a Jaenisch player swears on?


Among Schliemann works, the sun rises and sets on Ivanov and Kulagin (though it is old by now).  I have this work, but it's unfortunately boxed away.  Maybe I'll try to dig it out.  I also have the Brunello work, btw.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #200 - 08/13/11 at 14:58:01
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MNb wrote on 08/09/11 at 21:56:14:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6 Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 dxc6 9.Nxe5 O-O 10.b3 looks inconvenient after 10...Bd6 11.Bb2 Re8.
So 10.O-O and Black has avoided the b2-b3 idea, but abandoned the option to castle Queenside. After 9...O-O 10.O-O there are other moves than 10...Bf5 transposing, but I don't see how they should improve Black's chances. 10...Bd6 11.Nc4 looks good enough for at least some advantage (after 11.d4 c5 12.Be3 Bxe5 Queens will be exchanged, increasing Black's drawing chances).

In the case of 10.b3, there is also 10...Re8! 11.Bb2 Ba3 12.Bc3 Bd6 13.d4 c5 when the Bc3 is misplaced.

After 10.0-0 Bf5 we are back in a much-played line (thanks to Jon Tait for the valuable hint), but I fail to see a resilient defence for Black. It looks like White has all the chances for a win, and Black is almost helpless.

Interestingly, 10...Bd6 seems to be a tougher nut to crack, the reply 11.d4 (46 games) looks very drawish. I agree with MNb that 11.Nc4 (7 games) should be our choice, no doubt White has a plus here. But how much does he have?

Is there a member who has played the Jaenisch/Schliemann and has an opinion about these critical lines? We also could need some hints about the best available chess books on the topic. I have Khalifman, Sokolov, Greet, Flear ("Offbeat Spanish"), but e.g. Brunello ("Attacking the Spanish") seems to be missing. Are there older sources of some importance (I'll check Harding: Counter Gambits)? Is there any source a Jaenisch player swears on?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #199 - 08/12/11 at 01:46:55
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Markovich wrote on 08/11/11 at 17:44:42:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 08/11/11 at 10:40:10:
Markovich wrote on 08/10/11 at 15:12:13:
White wants his pawn on d4 in case of ...O-O, on d3 in case of ...O-O-O.  Black's castling early just lets White know what his setup will be.  Since what you call the "solid lines" are in our repertoire, I don't see why we should try to avoid them in case of Black castling early.

In these lines we just duke it out and make Black justify his pawn deficit.


Fair enough.

Any opinions on 8...bxc6 - ?


Good question.  Have we even looked at that?

On 8...bxc6 White can play 9.Qxe5 (drawish according to Sokolov, but I don't agree) 9...d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6 11.d3 0-0 (so far it has been played in practice), and now I'd recommend 12.Nd2 with a set-up like 12...d5 13.Rb1 (13.Kd1 c5 14.Rb1 c4!) 13...c5 14.b3 Bd7 15.Kd1 Rae8 16.f3 +=. Black has insufficient compensation for the pawn.

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White follows the strategy: if your opponent has the bishop pair, limit one of the bishops by pawn chains on one colour. For example: 16...Re6 17.Ba3 Bd4 18.Bb2 Rfe8 19.Bxd4 cxd4 20.Rg1!, intending 20...Re2 21.Ne4. - Black can instead delay castling: 11...c5 12.Nd2 d5, but again 13.Rb1 (not 13.Kd1? c4 =) may just transpose: 13...0-0 14.b3. It seems that Black has nothing better.

Sokolov has more sympathy for 9.Nxe5 or 9.d4"!" (in an old Schach-Archiv this idea is attributed to Dr. Hunter), but there are some flaws. Thus I propose to be satisfied with the good ending after 9.Qxe5.

Radyabov has played 5...Nf6 only in rapid chess, the only exception: his game against Judit Polgar. Since Polgar likes aggressive play more than better endings, the risk may be limited against her. But somehow I doubt that Radyabov would play 5...Nf6 in a normal game against Kramnik.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #198 - 08/11/11 at 17:44:42
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 08/11/11 at 10:40:10:
Markovich wrote on 08/10/11 at 15:12:13:
White wants his pawn on d4 in case of ...O-O, on d3 in case of ...O-O-O.  Black's castling early just lets White know what his setup will be.  Since what you call the "solid lines" are in our repertoire, I don't see why we should try to avoid them in case of Black castling early.

In these lines we just duke it out and make Black justify his pawn deficit.


Fair enough.

Any opinions on 8...bxc6 - ?


Good question.  Have we even looked at that?
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #197 - 08/11/11 at 10:40:10
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Markovich wrote on 08/10/11 at 15:12:13:
White wants his pawn on d4 in case of ...O-O, on d3 in case of ...O-O-O.  Black's castling early just lets White know what his setup will be.  Since what you call the "solid lines" are in our repertoire, I don't see why we should try to avoid them in case of Black castling early.

In these lines we just duke it out and make Black justify his pawn deficit.


Fair enough.

Any opinions on 8...bxc6 - ?
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #196 - 08/10/11 at 15:12:13
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White wants his pawn on d4 in case of ...O-O, on d3 in case of ...O-O-O.  Black's castling early just lets White know what his setup will be.  Since what you call the "solid lines" are in our repertoire, I don't see why we should try to avoid them in case of Black castling early.

In these lines we just duke it out and make Black justify his pawn deficit.
  

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