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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation. (Read 11311 times)
kylemeister
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #34 - 02/16/15 at 16:39:22
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I'm not sure where ...Nh5 has been occurring in cases comparable to the Lasker and Capablanca variations, but certainly the ...Nh5's in those two Exchange examples go back many years.  For instance, in the specific position in which Kramnik played it, it was given as leading to equality in the first edition of ECO (1976).  The look of Kramnik-Giri, with Black not meeting e4 with ...de, reminded me of this bit from another Marovic book (Dynamic Pawn Play):  "A somewhat unusual continuation, though in harmony with the logic of the position, was successfully played in Sturua-Ruzele, Berlin 1988:  10...g6 11. f3 Nh5 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. e4 Nb6 14. Rf2 Ng7 15. Rd1 Be6."
« Last Edit: 02/16/15 at 18:43:37 by kylemeister »  
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Pcal
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #33 - 02/16/15 at 16:29:41
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Just the fact the modern players are playing it and analyzing it to find new/improvements says volumes.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #32 - 02/16/15 at 09:11:03
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Pcal wrote on 02/16/15 at 00:10:19:
[quote author=283A2F262E262A30372631430 link=1313108073/29#29 date=1423955588]Thanks just started looking at it. .... Nh5 lines where either  Nf3 or Nge2 are played are fine for Black. 


Lines where Black moves the Knight to exchange on e7 are well known from the Lasker ( .. Ne4) and old main line ( .. dxc4 and .. Nd5). The more recent discovery is that the decentralising .. Nh5 is as good or better and is also a weapon in exchange variations. For anyone intending to defend the QGD, analysing where the modern players have found improvements in variations that have been made to look like a forced win would be necessary.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #31 - 02/16/15 at 00:10:19
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kylemeister wrote on 02/14/15 at 23:13:08:
Speaking of QGD at the super-level, today you had Anand-Kramnik, with VK playing in an old-school way which I thought was supposed to be borderline-unplayable even for 2000 players or the like   Smiley


Cool! Thanks just started looking at it. .... Nh5 lines where either  Nf3 or Nge2 are played are fine for Black.  It's for that very conception (i.e. the belief that these lines are somehow weak lines... that I play QGD.

V Anand (2797) - V Kramnik (2783) [D36]
Zurich Chess Challenge Zurich SUI (1), 14.02.2015

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Nf3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Ne5 Nf6 12.Bd3 Ng4 13.Nf3 Be6 14.Kb1 0-0-0 15.h3 Nf6 16.Nd2 Kb8 17.Nb3 Ne8 18.Nc5 Nd6 19.f3 f5 20.g4 Bc8 21.Rde1 Rhf8 22.Qh2 Qc7 23.Rhf1 Rde8 24.b3 g6 25.Bc2 Re7 26.Rf2 Rfe8 27.Rfe2 Nd7 28.Nd3 Nf7 29.Qxc7+ Kxc7 30.gxf5 gxf5 31.Nf4 Nf6 32.h4 Nh8 33.Kc1 Ng6 34.Ng2 Nh5 35.Rg1 a5 36.Kd2 Rg7 37.Ne1 h6 38.Reg2 Reg8 39.Ne2 Kd6 40.a3 b6 41.b4 axb4 42.axb4 Ne7 43.Rxg7 Rxg7 44.Rxg7 Nxg7 45.Nf4 c5 46.bxc5+ bxc5 47.dxc5+ ½-½

In fact here is probably where Kramnik got the idea to play the exchange this tournament!  He got beat late last year by a... Nh5 line in the modern QGD exchange ( I think it was a blitz but i could be wrong...) By Giri Anish.
See game below

Kramnik Vladimir,2769 (2769) - Giri Anish, 2797 
London Classic Pro Biz Cup 6th  09.12.2014

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Qc2 Nbd7 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 Nh5 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.e4 Be6 14.e5 g6 15.f4 Ng7 16.Ng3 f5 17.exf6 Qxf6 18.Qf2 Nf5 19.Nxf5 Bxf5 20.Bxf5 Qxf5 21.Rae1 Nd7 22.h3 h5 23.Kh1 Kf7 24.Qf3 Rxe1 25.Rxe1 Re8 26.Rxe8 Kxe8 27.Qe3+ Kf7 28.Kh2 h4 29.Qf2 g5 30.Ne2 Nf6 31.Qe3 g4 32.Nc3 g3+ 33.Kg1 Qc2 34.b3 Ne4 0-1 0-1

Black has got some nice resources in both Nf3 and Nge2 lines Especially in Nge2 Kasparov line. Public opinion seems opposite on this Shocked
« Last Edit: 02/16/15 at 01:32:18 by Pcal »  
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gauss
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #30 - 02/15/15 at 02:20:57
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Kramnik allowed the exchange vs. Ding Liren in Petrosian memorial and drew with much trouble. Andreiken also frequently will allow the exchange (player Short System or Nh5 lines) and has decent results.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #29 - 02/14/15 at 23:13:08
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Speaking of QGD at the super-level, today you had Anand-Kramnik, with VK playing in an old-school way which I thought was supposed to be borderline-unplayable even for 2000 players or the like   Smiley
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #28 - 02/13/15 at 22:26:01
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Has the modern GM stopped playing for a win as Black with the QGD? IDK.... Again im not that high rated.  I think for many of the top super Gm's maybe.  Yet, when explore the Qgd on line  (looking for refrences for ideas etc) I find a derth of games by modern Gm's and Im's below the super level. Both Karpov and Kasparov contributed freash ideas.  Kramnnik, Ivanchuk also...  I too think the masters of old where more creative . (I think about even when it comes to skill wise/chess strength) To many the Qgd was the KIDg or there Qid
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #27 - 02/13/15 at 19:57:41
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You remind me of Drazen Marovic's book, which came out some years before Sadler's.  He spent part of the preface praising the understanding of the old masters, and slamming "the modern master," in whose hands "the QG often remains a routine pushing of wood" or something like that.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #26 - 02/13/15 at 17:51:21
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Equally though, they will find other ways to attack and defend rather than old stereotypes inherited from the days of Alekhine and Capablanca.


It's interesting you say that... I'm not that strong of a player. One of the main "tombs of knowledge" that I garner is GM Sadler's "Queen's Gambit Declined"  IMO... because of the format of the book written.. quite possibly "one of the best opening books in the last 30yrs!" (That Q&A format can be done for all levels of players..  just ask more advance questions for the higher rated players)

Sadler's big on not playing that early  ...a6 and gives the following game.

Rubinstien-Takacs
Budapest 1926

1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.e3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Rc1 c6 8.Qc2 a6
9.cxd5 exd5 10.Bd3 Re8 11.O-O Nf8 12.Rfe1 Bg4 13.Nd2 N6d7 14.Bf4 Bg5 15.h3 Bh5
16.Bh2 Bg6 17.Bxg6 hxg6 18.Qb3 Qb6 19.Na4 Qxb3 20.Nxb3 Ne6 21.Na5 Ra7
22.Kf1 Bd8 23.b4 f5 24.Nb2 Kf7 25.Nd3 g5 26.Rc2 Bb6 27.Bd6 Nd8 28.Nc5 Nxc5
29.Bxc5 Bxc5 30.bxc5 Ke7 31.Rb2 Kd7 32.Reb1 Kc8 33.Ke2 Re7 34.Kf3 Re4 35.g4 g6
36.Rg1 Nf7 37.h4 gxh4 38.gxf5 gxf5 39.Rg7 Nd8 40.Rg8 f4 41.Rh8 fxe3 42.fxe3 Kd7
43.Rg2 Re8 44.Rxh4 Re7 45.Rh8 Kc7 46.Rgg8 Rd7 47.Nb3 a5 48.Nc1 Ra8 49.Nd3 b5
50.cxb6+ Kxb6 51.Nc5 Rd6 52.a4 Rc8 53.Kg4 Ra8 54.Kf5 Kc7 55.Rh7+ 1-0

Yea, I know it's old school. I'm kinda old school...

I play the QGD (it's one of my main lines) The Exchange, Tartakower, Orthodox/Rossetto's Var & other similar lines etc...  The QGD serves me well. Its a great work horse of an opening full of suitabilities and nuances.. IMO  It's got a lot of high quality theory that is easily accessible with room to explore.  And at my level... If I had a dime for every win as black because white "over pressed" or didn't grasp the "nuances of the positions" I wouldn't have to pay for my USCF membership. lol
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #25 - 02/12/15 at 10:25:59
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Pcal wrote on 02/11/15 at 06:28:45:
. But Wu Kaiyu 2200.... IMHO totally flubbed it as Black.  8...Nxd5?  8...exd was paramount.  IMHO as Black.... The strategic plan in these types of positions are all based on countering white's minority attack with a king side attack of his own.


It's going to depend on your engine, but they don't seem to consider that there's much to choose between the two recaptures. Equally though, they will find other ways to attack and defend rather than old stereotypes inherited from the days of Alekhine and Capablanca.

In the Bu game, it appears that Black could have played 15. .. Nc6 with a reasonable game. As it was, being down 300 rating points, he just got outplayed.

  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #24 - 02/11/15 at 06:28:45
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/12/11 at 16:21:35:
I too have found that cd5 makes sense. Here's one game that Bu Xiangzhi played as White using that basic idea against a 2200 opponen:






I agree... But Wu Kaiyu 2200.... IMHO totally flubbed it as Black.  8...Nxd5?  8...exd was paramount.  IMHO as Black.... The strategic plan in these types of positions are all based on countering white's minority attack with a king side attack of his own. Exchanging down here only improved White's position. Black needed to keep his dark squared Bishop and locate it at the usual d6 square.  Since white at move 8 hadn't started his minority attack,  Black had time to institute the standard counter measures with various moves like ...Ne8 heading ...Ng6 or Ne4 etc in conjunction with ...Bg4 or ...Bf5 & ...g6 & ....Qf6  standard stuff ala QGD exchange kingside counter attacking attacking motifs.  I also agree... I think an early a6 is NOT the way to go either.  If white goes for an Exchange Var after ...a6 (as he did here!!!)  it limits Black's options of dealing with the minority attack.

I like the QGD lots of subtleties and nuances. And pretty advanced (or can be... ) Lots of tactical ideas also...  But you got to know what your doing with it!

  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #23 - 08/13/11 at 21:42:54
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/11 at 21:33:47:
8.Rc1 is not a direct transposition.


Sorry, I just realized this too. I meant the Swiss, but it isn't necessarily true either because of the early ...h6 and Bh4.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #22 - 08/13/11 at 21:33:47
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@Buecker: fair enough. I agree that White's practical chances are not to be underestimated.

8.Rc1 is not a direct transposition. Black can play his intented dxc4+b5 idea. I don't know if this is equal but i'd prefer it over 8.Rc1 c6?! 9.c5 (not that ...Nc6 is not possible). I guess that maybe 8.Qc2 was Khalifman's choice. At least i remember the idea from him with Qc2+Rd1 making difficult to achieve the ...c5 push.
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #21 - 08/13/11 at 21:33:07
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One might think that ...a6 and ...h6 could both be suboptimal in the Exchange scenario (e.g. with White playing 0-0-0, where in the standard version Black often plays ...a5-a4, and ...h6 might "serve" to weaken his kingside).
  
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Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #20 - 08/13/11 at 21:23:38
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/11 at 20:31:18:
I don't think that cxd5 should be a terrible problem. I don't see what makes Black's position worse than a normal Exchange variation. Probably the fact that White can play a4-a5 instead of b5? Should this be a problem? The other thing i know is that if ...Nxd5 is generally good idea in these structures.

Is the c5 idea stronger? I recall from some Khalifman analysis that he met c5 with ...Nc6! in some lines, so he liked the c5 push only after Black had played ...c6. Am i wrong again? Probably, probably not! My instict says that i shouldn't fear both the 8.cxd5 Nxd5 and the 8.c5 Nc6 positions for Black. If White playues some else, say 8.Rc1 or i don
t know, 8.Bd3 what Black plays? Is the ...dxc4+b5 idea strong (i mean enough for equality?). I cannot analyse this now, so i'd appreciate any help. Anyway, i can say that i like the idea 7...a6. Doesn
t Khalifman cover this? He usually don't pass these sidelines leaving them unmentioned.


In the Exchange, ...a6 is indeed a move Black often plays anyway. However, White hasn't commited to any plan yet. Don't know if he can make anything out of it, but it feels like a bit better than normal.

The answer ...Nc6 to c5 is something I haven't looked at. Interesting indeed. After 8.Rc1 we are in the old orthodox.

I agree, I wonder what Khalifman says?
  
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