Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation. (Read 9161 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4171
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #34 - 02/16/15 at 16:39:22
Post Tools
I'm not sure where ...Nh5 has been occurring in cases comparable to the Lasker and Capablanca variations, but certainly the ...Nh5's in those two Exchange examples go back many years.  For instance, in the specific position in which Kramnik played it, it was given as leading to equality in the first edition of ECO (1976).  The look of Kramnik-Giri, with Black not meeting e4 with ...de, reminded me of this bit from another Marovic book (Dynamic Pawn Play):  "A somewhat unusual continuation, though in harmony with the logic of the position, was successfully played in Sturua-Ruzele, Berlin 1988:  10...g6 11. f3 Nh5 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. e4 Nb6 14. Rf2 Ng7 15. Rd1 Be6."
« Last Edit: 02/16/15 at 18:43:37 by kylemeister »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pcal
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/04/13
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #33 - 02/16/15 at 16:29:41
Post Tools
Just the fact the modern players are playing it and analyzing it to find new/improvements says volumes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 666
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #32 - 02/16/15 at 09:11:03
Post Tools
Pcal wrote on 02/16/15 at 00:10:19:
[quote author=283A2F262E262A30372631430 link=1313108073/29#29 date=1423955588]Thanks just started looking at it. .... Nh5 lines where either  Nf3 or Nge2 are played are fine for Black. 


Lines where Black moves the Knight to exchange on e7 are well known from the Lasker ( .. Ne4) and old main line ( .. dxc4 and .. Nd5). The more recent discovery is that the decentralising .. Nh5 is as good or better and is also a weapon in exchange variations. For anyone intending to defend the QGD, analysing where the modern players have found improvements in variations that have been made to look like a forced win would be necessary.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pcal
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/04/13
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #31 - 02/16/15 at 00:10:19
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/14/15 at 23:13:08:
Speaking of QGD at the super-level, today you had Anand-Kramnik, with VK playing in an old-school way which I thought was supposed to be borderline-unplayable even for 2000 players or the like   Smiley


Cool! Thanks just started looking at it. .... Nh5 lines where either  Nf3 or Nge2 are played are fine for Black.  It's for that very conception (i.e. the belief that these lines are somehow weak lines... that I play QGD.

V Anand (2797) - V Kramnik (2783) [D36]
Zurich Chess Challenge Zurich SUI (1), 14.02.2015

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Nf3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.0-0-0 Nb6 11.Ne5 Nf6 12.Bd3 Ng4 13.Nf3 Be6 14.Kb1 0-0-0 15.h3 Nf6 16.Nd2 Kb8 17.Nb3 Ne8 18.Nc5 Nd6 19.f3 f5 20.g4 Bc8 21.Rde1 Rhf8 22.Qh2 Qc7 23.Rhf1 Rde8 24.b3 g6 25.Bc2 Re7 26.Rf2 Rfe8 27.Rfe2 Nd7 28.Nd3 Nf7 29.Qxc7+ Kxc7 30.gxf5 gxf5 31.Nf4 Nf6 32.h4 Nh8 33.Kc1 Ng6 34.Ng2 Nh5 35.Rg1 a5 36.Kd2 Rg7 37.Ne1 h6 38.Reg2 Reg8 39.Ne2 Kd6 40.a3 b6 41.b4 axb4 42.axb4 Ne7 43.Rxg7 Rxg7 44.Rxg7 Nxg7 45.Nf4 c5 46.bxc5+ bxc5 47.dxc5+ ½-½

In fact here is probably where Kramnik got the idea to play the exchange this tournament!  He got beat late last year by a... Nh5 line in the modern QGD exchange ( I think it was a blitz but i could be wrong...) By Giri Anish.
See game below

Kramnik Vladimir,2769 (2769) - Giri Anish, 2797 
London Classic Pro Biz Cup 6th  09.12.2014

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 c6 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Qc2 Nbd7 9.Nge2 Re8 10.0-0 Nf8 11.f3 Nh5 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.e4 Be6 14.e5 g6 15.f4 Ng7 16.Ng3 f5 17.exf6 Qxf6 18.Qf2 Nf5 19.Nxf5 Bxf5 20.Bxf5 Qxf5 21.Rae1 Nd7 22.h3 h5 23.Kh1 Kf7 24.Qf3 Rxe1 25.Rxe1 Re8 26.Rxe8 Kxe8 27.Qe3+ Kf7 28.Kh2 h4 29.Qf2 g5 30.Ne2 Nf6 31.Qe3 g4 32.Nc3 g3+ 33.Kg1 Qc2 34.b3 Ne4 0-1 0-1

Black has got some nice resources in both Nf3 and Nge2 lines Especially in Nge2 Kasparov line. Public opinion seems opposite on this Shocked
« Last Edit: 02/16/15 at 01:32:18 by Pcal »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #30 - 02/15/15 at 02:20:57
Post Tools
Kramnik allowed the exchange vs. Ding Liren in Petrosian memorial and drew with much trouble. Andreiken also frequently will allow the exchange (player Short System or Nh5 lines) and has decent results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4171
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #29 - 02/14/15 at 23:13:08
Post Tools
Speaking of QGD at the super-level, today you had Anand-Kramnik, with VK playing in an old-school way which I thought was supposed to be borderline-unplayable even for 2000 players or the like   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pcal
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/04/13
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #28 - 02/13/15 at 22:26:01
Post Tools
Has the modern GM stopped playing for a win as Black with the QGD? IDK.... Again im not that high rated.  I think for many of the top super Gm's maybe.  Yet, when explore the Qgd on line  (looking for refrences for ideas etc) I find a derth of games by modern Gm's and Im's below the super level. Both Karpov and Kasparov contributed freash ideas.  Kramnnik, Ivanchuk also...  I too think the masters of old where more creative . (I think about even when it comes to skill wise/chess strength) To many the Qgd was the KIDg or there Qid
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4171
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #27 - 02/13/15 at 19:57:41
Post Tools
You remind me of Drazen Marovic's book, which came out some years before Sadler's.  He spent part of the preface praising the understanding of the old masters, and slamming "the modern master," in whose hands "the QG often remains a routine pushing of wood" or something like that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pcal
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/04/13
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #26 - 02/13/15 at 17:51:21
Post Tools
Equally though, they will find other ways to attack and defend rather than old stereotypes inherited from the days of Alekhine and Capablanca.


It's interesting you say that... I'm not that strong of a player. One of the main "tombs of knowledge" that I garner is GM Sadler's "Queen's Gambit Declined"  IMO... because of the format of the book written.. quite possibly "one of the best opening books in the last 30yrs!" (That Q&A format can be done for all levels of players..  just ask more advance questions for the higher rated players)

Sadler's big on not playing that early  ...a6 and gives the following game.

Rubinstien-Takacs
Budapest 1926

1.c4 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.e3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.Rc1 c6 8.Qc2 a6
9.cxd5 exd5 10.Bd3 Re8 11.O-O Nf8 12.Rfe1 Bg4 13.Nd2 N6d7 14.Bf4 Bg5 15.h3 Bh5
16.Bh2 Bg6 17.Bxg6 hxg6 18.Qb3 Qb6 19.Na4 Qxb3 20.Nxb3 Ne6 21.Na5 Ra7
22.Kf1 Bd8 23.b4 f5 24.Nb2 Kf7 25.Nd3 g5 26.Rc2 Bb6 27.Bd6 Nd8 28.Nc5 Nxc5
29.Bxc5 Bxc5 30.bxc5 Ke7 31.Rb2 Kd7 32.Reb1 Kc8 33.Ke2 Re7 34.Kf3 Re4 35.g4 g6
36.Rg1 Nf7 37.h4 gxh4 38.gxf5 gxf5 39.Rg7 Nd8 40.Rg8 f4 41.Rh8 fxe3 42.fxe3 Kd7
43.Rg2 Re8 44.Rxh4 Re7 45.Rh8 Kc7 46.Rgg8 Rd7 47.Nb3 a5 48.Nc1 Ra8 49.Nd3 b5
50.cxb6+ Kxb6 51.Nc5 Rd6 52.a4 Rc8 53.Kg4 Ra8 54.Kf5 Kc7 55.Rh7+ 1-0

Yea, I know it's old school. I'm kinda old school...

I play the QGD (it's one of my main lines) The Exchange, Tartakower, Orthodox/Rossetto's Var & other similar lines etc...  The QGD serves me well. Its a great work horse of an opening full of suitabilities and nuances.. IMO  It's got a lot of high quality theory that is easily accessible with room to explore.  And at my level... If I had a dime for every win as black because white "over pressed" or didn't grasp the "nuances of the positions" I wouldn't have to pay for my USCF membership. lol
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 666
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #25 - 02/12/15 at 10:25:59
Post Tools
Pcal wrote on 02/11/15 at 06:28:45:
. But Wu Kaiyu 2200.... IMHO totally flubbed it as Black.  8...Nxd5?  8...exd was paramount.  IMHO as Black.... The strategic plan in these types of positions are all based on countering white's minority attack with a king side attack of his own.


It's going to depend on your engine, but they don't seem to consider that there's much to choose between the two recaptures. Equally though, they will find other ways to attack and defend rather than old stereotypes inherited from the days of Alekhine and Capablanca.

In the Bu game, it appears that Black could have played 15. .. Nc6 with a reasonable game. As it was, being down 300 rating points, he just got outplayed.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pcal
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 11/04/13
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #24 - 02/11/15 at 06:28:45
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/12/11 at 16:21:35:
I too have found that cd5 makes sense. Here's one game that Bu Xiangzhi played as White using that basic idea against a 2200 opponen:






I agree... But Wu Kaiyu 2200.... IMHO totally flubbed it as Black.  8...Nxd5?  8...exd was paramount.  IMHO as Black.... The strategic plan in these types of positions are all based on countering white's minority attack with a king side attack of his own. Exchanging down here only improved White's position. Black needed to keep his dark squared Bishop and locate it at the usual d6 square.  Since white at move 8 hadn't started his minority attack,  Black had time to institute the standard counter measures with various moves like ...Ne8 heading ...Ng6 or Ne4 etc in conjunction with ...Bg4 or ...Bf5 & ...g6 & ....Qf6  standard stuff ala QGD exchange kingside counter attacking attacking motifs.  I also agree... I think an early a6 is NOT the way to go either.  If white goes for an Exchange Var after ...a6 (as he did here!!!)  it limits Black's options of dealing with the minority attack.

I like the QGD lots of subtleties and nuances. And pretty advanced (or can be... ) Lots of tactical ideas also...  But you got to know what your doing with it!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #23 - 08/13/11 at 21:42:54
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/11 at 21:33:47:
8.Rc1 is not a direct transposition.


Sorry, I just realized this too. I meant the Swiss, but it isn't necessarily true either because of the early ...h6 and Bh4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1417
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #22 - 08/13/11 at 21:33:47
Post Tools
@Buecker: fair enough. I agree that White's practical chances are not to be underestimated.

8.Rc1 is not a direct transposition. Black can play his intented dxc4+b5 idea. I don't know if this is equal but i'd prefer it over 8.Rc1 c6?! 9.c5 (not that ...Nc6 is not possible). I guess that maybe 8.Qc2 was Khalifman's choice. At least i remember the idea from him with Qc2+Rd1 making difficult to achieve the ...c5 push.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4171
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #21 - 08/13/11 at 21:33:07
Post Tools
One might think that ...a6 and ...h6 could both be suboptimal in the Exchange scenario (e.g. with White playing 0-0-0, where in the standard version Black often plays ...a5-a4, and ...h6 might "serve" to weaken his kingside).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #20 - 08/13/11 at 21:23:38
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/11 at 20:31:18:
I don't think that cxd5 should be a terrible problem. I don't see what makes Black's position worse than a normal Exchange variation. Probably the fact that White can play a4-a5 instead of b5? Should this be a problem? The other thing i know is that if ...Nxd5 is generally good idea in these structures.

Is the c5 idea stronger? I recall from some Khalifman analysis that he met c5 with ...Nc6! in some lines, so he liked the c5 push only after Black had played ...c6. Am i wrong again? Probably, probably not! My instict says that i shouldn't fear both the 8.cxd5 Nxd5 and the 8.c5 Nc6 positions for Black. If White playues some else, say 8.Rc1 or i don
t know, 8.Bd3 what Black plays? Is the ...dxc4+b5 idea strong (i mean enough for equality?). I cannot analyse this now, so i'd appreciate any help. Anyway, i can say that i like the idea 7...a6. Doesn
t Khalifman cover this? He usually don't pass these sidelines leaving them unmentioned.


In the Exchange, ...a6 is indeed a move Black often plays anyway. However, White hasn't commited to any plan yet. Don't know if he can make anything out of it, but it feels like a bit better than normal.

The answer ...Nc6 to c5 is something I haven't looked at. Interesting indeed. After 8.Rc1 we are in the old orthodox.

I agree, I wonder what Khalifman says?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1318
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #19 - 08/13/11 at 21:21:07
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/11 at 21:01:32:
Buecker's statement seems a bit confusing to me. I thought that it was proven that Black has at least 2 or 3 good defenses after the g4 push. Probably after ...a6 he gets faster counterplay that the ...b6 line with dxc4+b5. Again, i may humiliate myself by saying all that because i use only my brain of reprodusing the chessboard as i don't have a program on my PC now

Tony Kosten's conclusion after the competition:

Quote:
True, it did seem that members preferred Black's chances, although personally speaking I would definitely be more happy to play the white side in an OTB game.

Basically I shared Tony's opinion. But I haven't really looked at 7...a6 8.g4, it is just a guess.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1417
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #18 - 08/13/11 at 21:01:32
Post Tools
@S_M: How do you suggest that White get's that edge? I said that i am not sure if 8.cxd5 or 8.c5 provide that edge. I am basically in Black's side on this because i quite like the idea! I just need to know if Black is OK after something neutral on the 8th move. I mean, is the 8...dxc4 idea followed by b5 working against say 8.Be2?

Buecker's statement seems a bit confusing to me. I thought that it was proven that Black has at least 2 or 3 good defenses after the g4 push. Probably after ...a6 he gets faster counterplay that the ...b6 line with dxc4+b5. Again, i may humiliate myself by saying all that because i use only my brain of reprodusing the chessboard as i don't have a program on my PC now
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1318
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #17 - 08/13/11 at 21:00:37
Post Tools
If 7...b6 8.g4! is a promising choice for White, as we have seen in the NIC competition, 7...a6 8.g4 must be even better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6899
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #16 - 08/13/11 at 20:46:58
Post Tools
[quote author=36353F39580 link=1313108072/14#14 date=1313166734]Hi S_F,

After 6 ...0-0 7 e3 my Houdini (same setup as before) now plays [u]7 ...b6[/u] at both time limits (depths = 23/58; 20/42)![/quote]

As I said, I've run into this several times in correspondence recently and I discovered it was the computer's first choice move when I ran my own engine after one of these games.

I'm guessing that you have an opening book or database hooked up to your engine so that it plays the top GM move, leading to the TMB. The second most popular choice is probably the Lasker variation.

Amet,

7...a6 can't be tactically refuted, at least not easily. Otherwise, the engines wouldn't choose it.

Do you have a less direct method of trying to prove 7...a6 is positionally a wasted move? 

I am not likely to play 7...a6 any time soon, but I have found it incredibly difficult to get more than a symbolic edge as white.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1417
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #15 - 08/13/11 at 20:31:18
Post Tools
I don't think that cxd5 should be a terrible problem. I don't see what makes Black's position worse than a normal Exchange variation. Probably the fact that White can play a4-a5 instead of b5? Should this be a problem? The other thing i know is that if ...Nxd5 is generally good idea in these structures.

Is the c5 idea stronger? I recall from some Khalifman analysis that he met c5 with ...Nc6! in some lines, so he liked the c5 push only after Black had played ...c6. Am i wrong again? Probably, probably not! My instict says that i shouldn't fear both the 8.cxd5 Nxd5 and the 8.c5 Nc6 positions for Black. If White playues some else, say 8.Rc1 or i don
t know, 8.Bd3 what Black plays? Is the ...dxc4+b5 idea strong (i mean enough for equality?). I cannot analyse this now, so i'd appreciate any help. Anyway, i can say that i like the idea 7...a6. Doesn
t Khalifman cover this? He usually don't pass these sidelines leaving them unmentioned.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1730
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #14 - 08/12/11 at 17:32:14
Post Tools
Hi S_F,

After 6 ...0-0 7 e3 my Houdini (same setup as before) now plays [u]7 ...b6[/u] at both time limits (depths = 23/58; 20/42)!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #13 - 08/12/11 at 16:28:32
Post Tools
I would think that even keeping the bishop with Bg3 after ...Nd5 would make sense. As I understood it, the key idea with ...h6 is that after Bh4, Black will have more tactical ideas that make it impossible to refrain from the bishop exchange.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6899
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #12 - 08/12/11 at 16:26:04
Post Tools
[quote author=3E3D3731500 link=1313108072/2#2 date=1313135714]Forgive my ignorance, but isn't which move any engine chooses in any position liable to be influenced by the speed of the computer it's running on, the time controls selected, the analysis (or other) mode chosen, and quite a few other factors? On my (pretty fast dual core) PC, Houdini (operating in Arena) on autoplay chooses 6 ...0-0 both at 40/120 and 40/40, and doesn't seem to seriously consider 6 ...a6 at all.[/quote]
Michael, my apologies, but I entered the incorrect position. Yes, the computers prefer 6...0-0. After 7.e3, Houdini and Firebird both prefer 7...a6 at a depth of +20. I don't know about Rybka, but I suspect it too will prefer 7...a6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6899
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #11 - 08/12/11 at 16:21:35
Post Tools
I too have found that cd5 makes sense. Here's one game that Bu Xiangzhi played as White using that basic idea against a 2200 opponen:



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6899
Joined: 06/16/05
Re: D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #10 - 08/12/11 at 16:16:41
Post Tools
I'm sorry, I misrepresented the move order in my initial post. I should have included the move pair e3 and 0-0.

So one move order is:



I'm sorry for my sloppiness when I posted. I was in a hurry and didn't double-check the moves. I'm glad to see such a huge response so quickly.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #9 - 08/12/11 at 15:10:52
Post Tools
Ludde wrote on 08/12/11 at 13:57:09:
In the related line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 0-0 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.Rc1 a6!? 8.c5 was, at least in the days when I learned basic theory, considered whites best option. Black will need to play c6 making a7-a6 look slightly out of place. It should possibly be different when the knight is still on b8 and still controls c6 (making a speedier b7-b6 break possible).
In the game given by Vass the position is the same as the old otrodox line apart from the inclusion of h6 and Bh4 after blacks 8..Nbd7.


As I have looked at this a bit more, I also feel that either c5 or cxd5 should give White an advantage. But it feels like the inclusion of h6 and Bh4 in the Orthodox line or the Swiss variation (...6.a6) is better for Black than White. I have been looking at some old games like Euwe-Alekhine, 1935, and the idea for Black is to play ...dxc4, ...b5, ...a6 (...c6 already played). White would like to meet this with e4, but this is refuted by ...Nxe4. Therefore, White may omit Rc1 and as TN points out, the rook doesn't really belong on c1 in the Exchange.

If White goes c5, then Black can maybe go for a ...b6 or ...e5 break, but on the other hand, doesn't the rook belong at another square than c1 in most lines after this too?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1104
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #8 - 08/12/11 at 14:54:00
Post Tools
TN wrote on 08/12/11 at 14:10:42:
I don't understand why White doesn't play the immediate 8.cxd5 since the a1-rook usually belongs on b1 in the Carlsbad pawn structure, or occasionally e1.

It's a good question. White can play 8.cxd5, of course.. And it is good (maybe best, in fact). But somehow 6... a6 tells me that black wants to deviate...so I give him all the chances to do it..  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3316
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #7 - 08/12/11 at 14:10:42
Post Tools
I don't understand why White doesn't play the immediate 8.cxd5 since the a1-rook usually belongs on b1 in the Carlsbad pawn structure, or occasionally e1.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ludde
Full Member
***
Offline


So much theory..so little
time

Posts: 155
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 10/16/09
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #6 - 08/12/11 at 13:57:09
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 08/12/11 at 13:12:20:
I like this "Catalan" idea in QGD, though it's nothing special.. The problem is that the second player has to be very careful if he wants to deviate from the Exchange QGD. For example, I'll post here a brief analysis not pretending that it's 100 % perfect:

That's it! The best way for white is to enter in an Exchange QGD with some good chances for += The c4-c5 idea instead, can be good too, of course..  Wink


In the related line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 0-0 6.Nf3 Nbd7 7.Rc1 a6!? 8.c5 was, at least in the days when I learned basic theory, considered whites best option. Black will need to play c6 making a7-a6 look slightly out of place. It should possibly be different when the knight is still on b8 and still controls c6 (making a speedier b7-b6 break possible).
In the game given by Vass the position is the same as the old otrodox line apart from the inclusion of h6 and Bh4 after blacks 8..Nbd7.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1104
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #5 - 08/12/11 at 13:12:20
Post Tools
I like this "Catalan" idea in QGD, though it's nothing special.. The problem is that the second player has to be very careful if he wants to deviate from the Exchange QGD. For example, I'll post here a brief analysis not pretending that it's 100 % perfect:

That's it! The best way for white is to enter in an Exchange QGD with some good chances for += The c4-c5 idea instead, can be good too, of course..  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #4 - 08/12/11 at 10:47:44
Post Tools
Interestingly, a game I found in the Swiss variation, Lerner-Ziatdinov, 1986, is pretty similar to this, except that if White plays as in that game, Black will have ...h6 played "for free". White can't play like in Romanishin-Ehlvest, 1996, either, apparently. A third game, Capablanca-Alekhine, 1927, from the Swiss variation wasn't great for White either. This means that White might want to try something else than e3 and Rc1 I guess. However, can't really say what that should be, except maybe 7.cxd5 to try to get to a good Exchange QGD? Or is 7.c5 good anyway?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1467
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #3 - 08/12/11 at 10:19:46
Post Tools
I guess the idea is the standard ...dxc4 followed by ...b5, but I don't know why an engine would choose this. I know too little about how they are programmed. The materialistic view would be that it hopes to keep the pawn on c4, maybe?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1730
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #2 - 08/12/11 at 08:55:14
Post Tools
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't which move any engine chooses in any position liable to be influenced by the speed of the computer it's running on, the time controls selected, the analysis (or other) mode chosen, and quite a few other factors? On my (pretty fast dual core) PC, Houdini (operating in Arena) on autoplay chooses 6 ...0-0 both at 40/120 and 40/40, and doesn't seem to seriously consider 6 ...a6 at all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Bartholomew
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 36
Location: St. Paul
Joined: 06/08/11
Gender: Male
Re: D56: Computer's 6...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
Reply #1 - 08/12/11 at 05:55:35
Post Tools
No clue why Houdini would prefer 6...a6.  I threw the position after 6.Bh4 on Rybka and 6...a6 was its 9th favorite move.

Certainly White should obtain a normal slight advantage, though that's about it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6899
Joined: 06/16/05
D56: Computer's 7...a6 in QGD Orthodox Variation.
08/12/11 at 01:14:32
Post Tools
Hi, I've recently run into the position that can arise after the following moves several times in correspondence games:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Nf3 h6 6.Bh4 O-O 7.e3 a6?/?!
Edited:
PLEASE NOTE: I have edited this post to reflect the question I meant to ask. The first 9 comments were based on a slightly incorrect presumption due to my error.  Embarrassed




It turns out this is Houdini's first choice and some other engines' first choices as well, even though no human GM uses it against other human GMs for obvious reasons.

I have come up with a strategy for facing this line, but I have to related questions:

Why would an engine prefer this over the many good lines available to Black

And

Does white really have enough of an edge in this position to expect to win against a computer in correspondence time controls


Please: Do not discuss alternatives before move 6. There are many ways to reach this position, and move order tricks don't address my questions. Thanks!
« Last Edit: 08/12/11 at 16:19:09 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo