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Normal Topic White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov (Read 4106 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #9 - 09/30/11 at 04:40:16
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tp2205 wrote on 09/20/11 at 16:10:52:
That looks as if the book by Kasparov and Nikitin is still pretty much up to date. In the Ivanchuk game 22...Ng7 is given as better


This was the conventional wisdom at the time.  I think Ivanchuk was one of the first, if not the first, to show that 22..Nxg3 was playable.  It's not clear which move is better today, as both appear to equalize.


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in the Movsesian game they suggest 18...d5.


This is no longer considered good.  Kasparov pointed out in his more recent book, Revolution in the 1970s, that 18..d5 19.e5 Ne4 20.Bxe4 dxe4 21.f5 exf5 22.Ne3 is good for White.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #8 - 09/30/11 at 03:29:41
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tp2205 wrote on 09/29/11 at 02:54:26:
@ Ametanoitos wrote on 09/28/11 at 08:10:55:
Comas Fabrego in "True Lies in Chess" spends 4-5 pages trying to explain the position and at the end he gives his own invention which leads according to him, to excellent position for Black. He doesn't like much the plan with Bc6+Qb7. Instead he gives a plan with Rae8 and Ba8!? and when Bf3 then Qc4.


Do you mean the position after 14.Rae1 MartinC posted earlier and then 14...Rae8 and then 15.??? (I guess Kh1) Ba8 16.Bf3 Qc4?   I probably would prefer 16.Rd1 and if Black continues waiting with Rd8 then perhaps 17.Bd3 with the idea 18.e5 (the usual reply 17...e5 runs into 18 fe Nh5 19.Qe3 with the threat 20. Bb6)

After 14...Rad8 mentioned by MartinC, 15. Bd3 with the idea e5 works for the same reason.



If it is the MartinC position + 14.Rae1 Rae8 15.Kh1 Ba8 16.Bf3 Qc4, I don't find any games in my database.  Has this ..Ba8 idea ever been tried OTB?  Undecided
  
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tp2205
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #7 - 09/29/11 at 02:54:26
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@ Ametanoitos wrote on 09/28/11 at 08:10:55:
Comas Fabrego in "True Lies in Chess" spends 4-5 pages trying to explain the position and at the end he gives his own invention which leads according to him, to excellent position for Black. He doesn't like much the plan with Bc6+Qb7. Instead he gives a plan with Rae8 and Ba8!? and when Bf3 then Qc4.


Do you mean the position after 14.Rae1 MartinC posted earlier and then 14...Rae8 and then 15.??? (I guess Kh1) Ba8 16.Bf3 Qc4?   I probably would prefer 16.Rd1 and if Black continues waiting with Rd8 then perhaps 17.Bd3 with the idea 18.e5 (the usual reply 17...e5 runs into 18 fe Nh5 19.Qe3 with the threat 20. Bb6)

After 14...Rad8 mentioned by MartinC, 15. Bd3 with the idea e5 works for the same reason.

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By the way, i was always wondering if Black can play ...d5 at once, after Be7+O-O, when White threatens e5 (for example after f4) in those Taimanov-classical lines both avoiding the scheveninghen transpsosition and the classical taimanov Bb4 stuff


I think usually e5 leads to reasonable positions from the Steinitz variation in the French where black played the fairly harmless Qc7. Also ed5 is possible and after Nd5, Nxc6 usually works because Be7 hangs with check. But to really discuss this we would need a concrete position.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #6 - 09/28/11 at 08:10:55
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Comas Fabrego in "True Lies in Chess" spends 4-5 pages trying to explain the position and at the end he gives his own invention which leads according to him, to excellent position for Black. He doesn't like much the plan with Bc6+Qb7. Instead he gives a plan with Rae8 and Ba8!? and when Bf3 then Qc4.

By the way, i was always wondering if Black can play ...d5 at once, after Be7+O-O, when White threatens e5 (for example after f4) in those Taimanov-classical lines both avoiding the scheveninghen transpsosition and the classical taimanov Bb4 stuff
  
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tp2205
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #5 - 09/20/11 at 16:10:52
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That looks as if the book by Kasparov and Nikitin is still pretty much up to date. In the Ivanchuk game 22...Ng7 is given as better in the Movsesian game they suggest 18...d5. Looking at those two games and also again at K&N's comments suggests that white has to come up with some new ideas. (Perhaps K&N's  suggestion 19.Kh1 g6 20.Qe3 a5 21.Ng3 a4) in the Ivanchuk game may provide an alternative. But I see absolute no reason for black to shy away from these lines.

  
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LeeRoth
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #4 - 09/19/11 at 18:00:02
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I might prefer to play ..Nxd4 and then follow-up with the ..Bc6-..Qb7 plan mentioned above.

Two of the classic games in this line are:

Shirov-Ivanchuk, Linares 1993
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1060366

Shirov-Movsesian, Sarajevo 2000
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1287624
  
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tp2205
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #3 - 09/19/11 at 13:11:18
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For what it is worth I played Qe1-g3 exclusively about 20 years ago and at that time I believe the official evaluation was unclear. I liked the position for white but I do not think white has an advantage.

First you should decide if you want to exchange on d4 or not. Exchanging simplifies the position a bit but makes it harder to generate counterplay or winning chances for black.

If you do not exchange on d4 you have to look at the various tactical tricks with e4-e5. You would have to look at the position with/without Kh1 and with the queen rook on a1/d1/e1. Perhaps the most famous game is a game Ljubojevic-Anderson 1976 (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1019762) which still seems to be unclear.
 
  
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MartinC
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #2 - 09/18/11 at 13:06:51
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I'd assume its this:


Or 14 Kh1. Obviously maybe earlier options, but that seems to the tabia. This specific position isn't in either of my Nardojf books - Emms going Nc6 and delaying Qc7, Ftacnik Qc7 and delaying Nc6. Emms actually notes that its even sort of Taminov specific nowadays.

Still plenty of theory of course Smiley fwiw Kasparov seems to think its just unclear in the one game he annotates in revolution in the 70's but no deep detail.

From there it seems to branch with either the direct Bc6/Qb7, or trying to induce Kh1 (I think?) with Rad8 or Rae8.

Looks like a lot of move order stuff/theory to work through to me, especially with subtle stuff like Rae8 seemingly trying to induce Bf3 not d3 then returning to d8?! (via Bd3 e5 holding up tactically.).

Anyway every way to get into the Scheveningen has its own drawbacks so I'd have a good look at the extant theory/games before giving up. Going all the way over the Kan seems maybe slightly extreme, as it is a little bit different.
  
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Re: White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
Reply #1 - 09/18/11 at 11:56:00
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I am not sure about your exact question (maybe some moves?), but I play the Kan and I am also learning the Taimanov to be able to a bit more flexible, as well as learn about similar but not exact positions. However, there will always be some systems that are dangerous, and usually it is better to learn to deal with these rather than to just switch systems.

Another story is if there really is no antidote, but that is not often the case.

Why do you want to stick to Nc6 first, btw?

  
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gramsci
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White's Qe1-g3 in the Scheveningen via Taimanov
09/18/11 at 09:26:20
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I'm trying to build a repertoire around the Scheveningen via Taimanov move order and I'm having difficultties to find a good antidote against white's plan Qe1-g3 (instead of the calssical a4, Bf3 and g4). I can't sidestep it via Najdorf playing Qc7 first because I want to stick to the Taimanov move oreder (Nc6 first and only then Qc7). What do you think is the best plan for black? Do you think this variation is dangerous enough to give up the Taimnov and pick up the Kan?
« Last Edit: 09/18/11 at 11:31:14 by gramsci »  
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