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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C01: French Exchange (Read 9541 times)
BenkoFan
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #20 - 02/09/16 at 09:21:07
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@Kylemeister - yes thats the line, although against 3.Nf3 he also recomends 3...Nc6 allowing the 4.Bb5 line which he claims White is trying to go "all out for the draw" in

@MartinC - well I suppose if you are playing a lower rated player and afraid of simplification you have to make some decision - go for a long grind or try the opposite castling plan and go for all out attack.
  
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MartinC
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #19 - 02/08/16 at 19:06:45
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The other problem with playing like that is that you're giving white quite real winning chances. Feels a bit generous frankly.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #18 - 02/08/16 at 17:19:02
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BenkoFan wrote on 02/08/16 at 17:04:37:
The line recommended in a DVD by Nick Pert is to play ...Nc6, ...Bd6, ...Nge7, ...Bg4, ...Qd7 followed by castle queenside and kingside attack!


Sounds to me like you're referring to White playing Bd3, c3, Nf3, 0-0, Nbd2 etc. (in which case such play by Black is old book stuff), but there are other ways for White to play ...
  
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BenkoFan
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #17 - 02/08/16 at 17:04:37
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The line recommended in a DVD by Nick Pert is to play ...Nc6, ...Bd6, ...Nge7, ...Bg4, ...Qd7 followed by castle queenside and kingside attack!

He says usually weaker players play the French against him so he just tries to checkmate them  Smiley
  
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MartinC
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #16 - 02/08/16 at 10:32:02
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Well, not remotely as strong but it can definitely get wearing after a while if its all you're getting. Just dull Sad

Ideally you'd have the patience to cope and grind but not all of us do.

Not that I've found the players prone to playing the French exchange to be likely to play anything lively anywhere else.
  
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BenkoFan
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #15 - 02/08/16 at 09:27:40
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That is the first time I have heard of a strong player giving up the French because of the exchange variation.
  
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #14 - 10/31/11 at 12:47:42
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Interesting to see an entire update devoted to the Exchange Variation (see October http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/2/index.htm). I always found it difficult to generate real chances as Black, and some years ago, after a series of draws against weaker players, I decided I had to stop playing the French Defence! Cry
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #13 - 10/30/11 at 11:31:05
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/26/11 at 18:05:31:
I'd have to look up the original source, but Korchnoi's logic definitely works for the French Exchange […]

One thing to consider is that when White has Nf3, e5 is  target. A great way to deprive White of that target is Ne7 and f7-f6. With the N on f6, that possibility vanishes.


Great point. In fact I frequently do that myself, also in the KIA. But what is the nongeneral reason to play along as Black and  use ...Nf6 in response to Ne2, only to see White able to do that same thing to you? As for myself, like Stigma I always play ...Ne7, unless White can still play c4 without losing time. I like to neutralize White's possibilities of Ne5, Bf4 and Bg5.
« Last Edit: 10/30/11 at 12:43:29 by ReneDescartes »  
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fling
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #12 - 10/26/11 at 19:16:35
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Stigma wrote on 10/26/11 at 18:47:50:
(Dvoretsky/Yusupov (1996). Positional Play. Batsford, p.62.)


You are totally right, this is the quote I have seen. I read that book about 10 years ago, and have mixed it up with Mastering the French, which I checked today and couldn't find anything in. Sadly, my memory has gone really bad Sad
  
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Stigma
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #11 - 10/26/11 at 18:47:50
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I found the Korchnoi quote I was thinking of, on the French Tarrasch:



Dvoretsky recalls analysing a similar position with Korchnoi, and being surprised when Korchnoi played ...Nf6 instead of ...Nge7. Korchnoi's answer:

Quote:
"How should you place your pieces when you have an isolated pawn? The place for the knight is on f6, and later, on e4. It's best to keep the bishop on the g1-a7 diagonal - where it exerts pressure on f2. In the main variation Black plays 8...Bd6 and 9...Nge7, simply because of specific circumstances (if 9...Nf6 then 10.Re1+ is unpleasant, whilst in the event of 8...Bb6 White can offer an exchange of bishops which is favorable to him with 9.Re1+ and 10.Be3 [sic]). But if I have time to put my pieces on their rightful squares, that is what I must do."


(Dvoretsky/Yusupov (1996). Positional Play. Batsford, p.62.)

In the French Exchange, frankly I don't see why Black can't answer either of White's three main moves 4.Nf3, 4.c4 and 4.Bd3 with 4...Nf6, provided he plays purposefully afterwards. Personally I often put my knight on e7, even if White has also played Nge2. The point of the Svenonius rule is to ensure unbalanced and interesting play, not that Black is necessarily worse if he plays symmetrically (though in some specific lines he may be).
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: C01: French Exchange
Reply #10 - 10/26/11 at 18:05:31
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I'd have to look up the original source, but Korchnoi's logic definitely works for the French Exchange even if he wasn't talking about that specifically. (I'm pretty sure he was talking about the French Exchange though. I don't remember reading his comments about the French Tarrasch with ...c5.)

One thing to consider is that when White has Nf3, e5 is a target. A great way to deprive White of that target is Ne7 and f7-f6. With the N on f6, that possibility vanishes.

General rules are great, and very enlightening. But in order for them to be valid, they must be grounded in concrete analyses. The rule of Nf3/e2 vs Ne7/f6 is one such general rule.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #9 - 10/26/11 at 14:11:51
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Blunderer wrote on 10/25/11 at 21:56:54:
yes - but why does this formation create a greater imbalance than symmetry. Its not as if in either case they are on a close circuit with each other.

I'm trying to understand what the 'imbalance' is created by.  I suspect it is somethign to do with the interact with the c1 and f8 bishops.....


I think the hypothesis is a general one, that more symmetrical positions tend to be more drawish, or at least tend to be more technical in nature. In symmetrical positions small difference in piece placement, or one tempo, can create an initiative, but not usually one of huge magnitude. Where there is less symmetry there is more instability. Because this is a strategic, long-term idea, it is based on playing the percentages--something is more likely to happen but you don't know exactly what. That's why it's hard to pin down.

Many players want to enhance their winning (and losing) chances in the notorious exchange variation which, as with the Slav, deters some from playing the French; so they choose contrasting piece placements for their own sake in those situations where the choices are relatively equal in merit.

Similarly if your opponent plays a setup with c3 you can play Nc6, and if your opponent plays Nc3 you can play c6.

For the same purpose you can also try to avoid building up (and eventually trading--more drawish) heavy pieces on the e-file, if only you cover all the entry squares carefully.

Finally the ultimate unbalancing strategy in the French exchange is opposite-side castling.
  
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Blunderer
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #8 - 10/26/11 at 13:38:18
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Many thanks for all the responses.

@Smyslov Fan - I can kind of understand your argument.  However, why does this placement of the white knight on f3 or e2 make any difference to the power of a Bg5 pin on a knight on f6?

@ Fling - here to you speak a lot of sense, however, why are the merits of Nge7 greater with the white knight on f3 v e2?

I'm not being deliberately difficult - its just one of those rules I've been following for years, but have no real idea why...

It seems to me that Nge7 seems to be generically good in many lines of the exchange, irrespective of the placement of the king's knight.
  
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fling
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #7 - 10/26/11 at 10:45:51
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Stigma wrote on 10/25/11 at 23:45:10:
Hmm. I saw this same quote by Korchnoi, but about the French Tarrasch IQP lines where the knight does go to e7 for tactical reasons (or more accurately Black plays either Nc6 + Nge7 or Nf6 + Nbd7, not Nc6 + Nf6). This was quoted in a Dvoretsky/Yusupov book, I think "Positional Play" or "Opening Developments".

Are you sure you're not mixing up the Exchange and the Tarrasch here? In the Exchange I don't see anything wrong with ...Nf6 in most lines, except it does get a bit symmetrical and boring. Thus the "Svenonius rule", quoted with approval by Nimzowitsch: Always answer Nf3 with ...Nge7 and Nge2 with ...Nf6 in the French Exchange, to ensure at least some imbalance.

P.S. Not everyone agrees that ...Nc6 with ...Nf6 is unplayable in the French Tarrasch IQP lines; GM Normunds Miezis played this way for years, often transposing from a c3 Sicilian. Maybe being committed to c3 makes it harder for White to prove an advantage.


You might be totally right. I think it was about the exchange, though, but I can check when I get home today (or somebody else with the book).

I agree about the imbalance, though. Also, Black in general wants to exchange his light-squared bishop, and after Nf3 ...Nge7, he might be able to do it either on f5, or g6 following ...Bg4, h3, ...Bh5 and then ...Bg6. White on the other hand will not be able to force an exchange of his dark-squared bishop if Black doesn't want to, since there is always ...f6.
  
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Stigma
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #6 - 10/25/11 at 23:45:10
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Hmm. I saw this same quote by Korchnoi, but about the French Tarrasch IQP lines where the knight does go to e7 for tactical reasons (or more accurately Black plays either Nc6 + Nge7 or Nf6 + Nbd7, not Nc6 + Nf6). This was quoted in a Dvoretsky/Yusupov book, I think "Positional Play" or "Opening Developments".

Are you sure you're not mixing up the Exchange and the Tarrasch here? In the Exchange I don't see anything wrong with ...Nf6 in most lines, except it does get a bit symmetrical and boring. Thus the "Svenonius rule", quoted with approval by Nimzowitsch: Always answer Nf3 with ...Nge7 and Nge2 with ...Nf6 in the French Exchange, to ensure at least some imbalance.

P.S. Not everyone agrees that ...Nc6 with ...Nf6 is unplayable in the French Tarrasch IQP lines; GM Normunds Miezis played this way for years, often transposing from a c3 Sicilian. Maybe being committed to c3 makes it harder for White to prove an advantage.
  

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Re: French Exchange
Reply #5 - 10/25/11 at 23:18:01
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/25/11 at 22:58:09:
It's a bit more complex than that.

Korchnoi explained that when White plays Nf3, Black would like to play Nf6, but for concrete tactical reasons (most notably Bg5 ideas), Ne7 gives Black more leeway in dealing with Bg5.

So, yes, the position is slightly unbalanced, but the concrete tactical reasons offer a more compelling argument.


I think I saw Korchnoi quoted on this in Mastering the French.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #4 - 10/25/11 at 22:58:09
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It's a bit more complex than that.

Korchnoi explained that when White plays Nf3, Black would like to play Nf6, but for concrete tactical reasons (most notably Bg5 ideas), Ne7 gives Black more leeway in dealing with Bg5.

So, yes, the position is slightly unbalanced, but the concrete tactical reasons offer a more compelling argument.
  
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #3 - 10/25/11 at 22:49:30
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They're just different ways to develop Smiley Black can go f6 and sometimes g5 say etc. Its not a massive imbalance, but anything helps.
  
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #2 - 10/25/11 at 21:56:54
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yes - but why does this formation create a greater imbalance than symmetry. Its not as if in either case they are on a close circuit with each other.

I'm trying to understand what the 'imbalance' is created by.  I suspect it is somethign to do with the interact with the c1 and f8 bishops.....
  
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Re: French Exchange
Reply #1 - 10/25/11 at 20:36:25
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In this way black can imbalance the game somewhat, useful for when he plays for a win.
  
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Blunderer
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C01: French Exchange
10/25/11 at 20:23:15
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Dumb question - but could someone please explain the reason why in the french exchange Black is given the advice that if White plays Nf3, he should play Ne7, and if Ne2 then Nf6?

Thanks
« Last Edit: 10/26/11 at 17:52:11 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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