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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit (Read 11366 times)
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #19 - 12/18/16 at 19:39:35
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MartinC wrote on 10/28/11 at 17:22:41:
It'll just be rather more effective if you check the extant theory. Easier too actually - its much easier to break analysis than build it up!


Absolutely.

Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 20:40:01:
I worked on DMGA. Best continuation is probably 9.d4 Qf5 10.Bxf4 as both theory and Houdini suggests it. Then i picked up 10...Nf6, and 10...Bg7 as candidates to investigate.


9...Qf5! dates back to Steinitz; and more specifically the game Showalter-Taubenhaus, New York 1889. Probably Black is just winning in this whole variation.
  

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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #18 - 11/01/11 at 17:21:23
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By the way, my aim remains the same: Making the people discuss and share fresh analyses about this gambit. I'm not intending to create a theory with engine.
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #17 - 11/01/11 at 16:46:55
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This gambit is interesting, but let's confine ourselves to the chess of it and especially to what we ourselves, as opposed to our engines, think about given positions. Posting long pgn files containing nothing but engine analysis is quite obnoxious.
  

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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #16 - 10/29/11 at 17:49:35
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Firstly, i have searched Chessbase Big Database 2010 for position arises after 10.Bxf4. There were 3 games with above 2000 rating.




All of them worth to be examined, nice games.


Secondly, i have analyzed 10...Bg7 deeply, and it seems white equalizes after 11.Qb3+. Here is my analysis:

First i analyzed about 70mN after 10.Bxf4. Engine gave 10...Nf6 about -0,90 and 10...Bg7 exactly 0. So i continued with 10...Bg7 line, analyzed about 50mN. Best continuation was clearly 11.Qb3+. Then analysed after 11.Qb3+ and then after 11...Qe6, same stuff happened. And finally analyzed after 12.d5 very deeply.


Both lines, = (0.00), forced draw. Depth: 30  230546mN

(Ferit,  29.10.2011)


Before continuing with DMGA, i am going to check MNb's and micawber's lines.
« Last Edit: 10/29/11 at 18:51:08 by Ferit Tuncer »  

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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #15 - 10/28/11 at 20:40:01
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@MartinC,

Yeah, you are absolutely right.


I worked on DMGA. Best continuation is probably 9.d4 Qf5 10.Bxf4 as both theory and Houdini suggests it. Then i picked up 10...Nf6, and 10...Bg7 as candidates to investigate.


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MartinC
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #14 - 10/28/11 at 17:22:41
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Good idea Smiley

It'll just be rather more effective if you check the extant theory. Easier too actually - its much easier to break analysis than build it up!
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #13 - 10/28/11 at 13:28:02
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@MartinC,

All i want to do is make people to help to improving this line. And i am trying to use my engine power somehow. (:
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #12 - 10/28/11 at 13:12:06
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Hummmm. What they do unarguably do hugely better is turn up tactical resources that humans would never find. Especially so in defence. But they're still far from perfect.

Especially as you're comparing them to results derived from a combination of empirical results from thousands of games and analysis from multiple very strong players - who recently will have had computers nearly as strong. Thats much, much bigger than a single person analysing Smiley (even if that person is a 3000 rated computer!)

So, sure they might well produce concrete ideas refuting a given piece of analysis, but don't especially expect them to develop theory from scratch unguided.
  
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #11 - 10/28/11 at 12:40:17
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@MartinC,

Of course we can't ignore but we should accept that on these kind of sharp positions, engines do much more better than humans.
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #10 - 10/28/11 at 12:14:05
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What you really need are multiple engines to cross compare the ideas etc. And some rational human control.

But effectively ignoring x hundred years of strong players analysing the opening truly not a good starting point Smiley Much easier to see where the critical lines are meant to be and then see if the computer(s) can poke holes in them.
  
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #9 - 10/28/11 at 12:01:42
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@fling,

I understand what you mean. But i expect most presice results from most competitive engine. Maybe i am wrong. But i am not engine specialist, and don't know algorithms.
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #8 - 10/28/11 at 11:58:52
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I decided to analyze critical variations first. First one is the ambitious Double Muzio Gambit Accepted(1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0 0 gf 6.Qf3 Qf6 7.e5 Qe5 8.Bf7 Kf7). Starting my engine now.
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #7 - 10/28/11 at 11:58:29
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Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 10:17:52:
@fling,

I have organised an engine match on my computer by using Fritz-GUI. Time control was 10 seconds + 1 second increment, engines didn't use a book.


Yes, I understand that you played a match. Does it say anything at all how about how the engine will perform in the analyis of the Muzio gambit? Especially with parameters like that in the match?
  
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #6 - 10/28/11 at 10:17:52
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@fling,

I have organised an engine match on my computer by using Fritz-GUI. Time control was 10 seconds + 1 second increment, engines didn't use a book.
  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #5 - 10/28/11 at 10:04:34
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Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 09:23:40:
@Smyslov_Fan,
And Fritz is a trash engine for now on. I have tested Houdini 2.0 against Rybka 4.1, score was about %70. Clearly winning. And tested with Fritz 13, score was about %90! So i don't advice you to use Fritz anymore. Houdini is the best now.


I am not sure I get your logic behind this. But I still appreciate that you will analyse the Muzio and present the result here.
  
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #4 - 10/28/11 at 09:23:40
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@Smyslov_Fan,

I have searched the forum before creating this topic of course, but i could find a little about Muzio, i decided to do this. I am hoping to make people to do deep and fresh analyses here, but of course i am going to make use of old topics too.

And Fritz is a trash engine for now on. I have tested Houdini 2.0 against Rybka 4.1, score was about %70. Clearly winning. And tested with Fritz 13, score was about %90! So i don't advice you to use Fritz anymore. Houdini is the best now.


@micawber and MNb,

I am going to test all of your suggestions by the engine soon, and share the results. Thanks for replies!
« Last Edit: 10/28/11 at 10:37:00 by Ferit Tuncer »  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #3 - 10/28/11 at 07:07:06
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A few remarks to the game presented by MNb
10...c6 is actually a sideline. The main line continues with Nbc6.
10....Nbc6 11.Rae1,Qf5 12.Nd5,Kd8 13.Qe2,Qe6 14.Qf3
is the Lean-attack.
Old theory books now state that Black should repeat moves with 14...Qf5. But actually 14....Qg6! promises Black good winning chances, as pointed out by S.Buecker/H.Smout digging up old analysis by Snosno-Borovski (1911).

That 18....Qg6 was the first new move in Mnb's game might be clarified a bit.
Both 18....Qxf4 and 18...Nxe7 had been analysed by Schlechter in the Bilguer as early as 1916.
Actually 18...Qxf4 leads to a forced draw as well after
19.Nxf4,Nxe7 20.Qg5+,Kh8 21.Nh5,f5 22.Qe3! (Blankenberg-Hannison,2001) when a perpetual is set up with 23.Qd4,Rf7 24.Qd8+ or 22...Rf7 23.Qe8+.

There is also an interesting side variation with
13.Bxd5,cxd5 14.Qh5,Qd6 15.Nb5! unclear (Samisch-Gunther, 1926). Black might have entered this in the game by replying 14.Bxd5,cxd5 (iso 14...0-0). But this also would not have given black any winning chances imo.


  
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #2 - 10/28/11 at 03:12:49
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7.d3 has been analysed by FM Bücker in his "Het Nieuwe Koningsgambiet", 1986.

An unknown game, which did not even make it into that nice book:

Edöcs-Glaser
Switzerland 1983

½-½

Now I don't have the time to look up from which magazine exactly I got this game. It's theoretically important though as the draw is forced.
I remember the magazine reporting how both players used a lot of time. I think that quite funny as 18...Qg6 was the first new move.

  

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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #1 - 10/28/11 at 03:10:22
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Just two things to be aware of:

  • There's already quite a bit of Muzio analysis in the threads on this site, you may want to check those out before seeing whether you're re-inventing the wheel. You can check them out by typing "C37" or Muzio in the search box.
  • The Muzio Gambit doesn't lend itself particularly well to engine analysis. There are quite a few sac lines that the engines just completely misevaluate even in these days. (Perhaps Fritz 13+ will prove this statement wrong, but I doubt it.)
  
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C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
10/27/11 at 22:35:40
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I am intending to launch a topic for fresh analyses only about Muzio Gambit(1.e4-e5 2.f4-ef 3.Nf3-g5 4.Bc4). I really like this romantic variation, and whenever i get opportunity, i play it with pleasure.

So, i am going to be the first. Today, i analyzed with engine after 4... g4 5.0-0-gf 6.Qf3-Qf6.

Analysis by Houdini 2.0 Pro x64:


=/+  (-0.64)    Depth: 30/65   02:40:04  70266mN
(Ferit,  28.10.2011)
« Last Edit: 10/28/11 at 09:16:16 by Ferit Tuncer »  

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