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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.) (Read 17712 times)
Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #26 - 01/15/12 at 08:07:46
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saubhikr wrote on 01/15/12 at 07:15:48:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/15/12 at 05:33:39:
Which lines in the Alatortsev are good to play?

As white or black?


To play for a win as Black, with 3...Be7.
  

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saubhikr
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #25 - 01/15/12 at 07:15:48
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/15/12 at 05:33:39:
Which lines in the Alatortsev are good to play?

As white or black?
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #24 - 01/15/12 at 05:33:39
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Which lines in the Alatortsev are good to play?
  

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saubhikr
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #23 - 01/14/12 at 02:06:19
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Agree to this. We cannot expect to win with black and also expect white will not have his chance. It is a two way street after all.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #22 - 01/13/12 at 19:59:24
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 01/11/12 at 23:13:18:
I have heard about the Alatortsev Variation, but then this variation has its own nuances. White can defer playing Nf3 and play some kingside pawn advances with h3 followed by g4 or h4 and g4. I cannot remember exactly, but those lines by themselves might be annoying also.


I would say those variations with g2-g4 and h2-h3 or even h2-h4 in the Alatorzew might be annoying for Black if he's playing for a draw, but not if he wants a fight.  Smiley
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #21 - 01/13/12 at 10:32:39
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It should be added that the Meran (White plays e2-e3) is hardly less unbalanced.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #20 - 01/12/12 at 22:18:13
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You want unbalanced, go for the Botvinnik or the Moscow Variations. They are some of the most complex openings in all of chess.

Yes, technically they are often lumped in with the Semi-Slavs, but the ideal move order may well be 1...Nf6, 2...e6, 3...d5 4....c6 Or 1...d5 2...e6 3....c6, both comfortably fitting in with the Orthodox QGD move order.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #19 - 01/11/12 at 23:13:18
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I have heard about the Alatortsev Variation, but then this variation has its own nuances. White can defer playing Nf3 and play some kingside pawn advances with h3 followed by g4 or h4 and g4. I cannot remember exactly, but those lines by themselves might be annoying also.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #18 - 01/11/12 at 22:20:21
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The Alatortsev Variation (with 4.cd5) is somewhat more unbalanced. The con is that you have to allow the Blackburne (4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bf4), but I don't think this opening is as drawish as recent GM games would suggest.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #17 - 01/11/12 at 21:45:12
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The only variation that I find annoying is against the Exchange Variation. It seems slightly more difficult to win with than other QGD variations.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #16 - 01/11/12 at 19:30:45
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What? The size of the theory is pretty heavy.


Aside that you maybe missed the word "not so" it was not only my idea. I considered to buy a book and saw in the intro the following statement by a respected author.  Wink

Quote:
In fact Kasparov stated something to the effect that the Sicilian and King’s Indian were too much to keep up with at the level he was playing at, and so he stuck
with the Sicilian while heading for more solid systems in the closed openings.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #15 - 01/11/12 at 19:18:22
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At the end of the day my defences are Nimzo/Ragozin. I considered many other variations but this choice is for me the best.

As Black player you have influence on the shape of the center and that is the most important point for me.
The Ragozin is an essential part because the Queens Indian is to quiet for Black and i do not believe you can build a sound repertoire on "provocative" and "surprising" moves in these types of positions.

my second choice would be the Kings Indian.

I myself prefer as Black a position which is complex (and the "margin of error" high) but is maybe at the moment +=  over equal positions which is forced draw or offers no winning chances without massive help by your opponent (like in the QGA - Furman or Exchange).

BTW. In one of my books i have read a commentar by Tal in one of his games as White in the QGD: "I can not understand why White should lose in the Queens Gambit".
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #14 - 01/11/12 at 19:12:23
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Has anyone really seen anyone purposefully go for a theoretical draw with white? I don't think I can remember seeing it.

Its just not a practical problem. A little bit more so that if there are obvious ones that they can fall into accidentally.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #13 - 01/11/12 at 19:00:57
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Tullius wrote on 01/11/12 at 12:50:45:
[quote]More opponents will take chances and the size of the theory in the QGD is not so heavy like in more aggressive openings.


What? The size of the theory is pretty heavy. There are many plans to choose from, but it is just not as forcing as some other openings like the Botvinnik.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #12 - 01/11/12 at 17:41:17
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And the recommended opening is ......?
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #11 - 01/11/12 at 12:50:45
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I'd rather say the opposite. The mistakes will be made, it just takes a good player to take advantage of them as the mistakes are usually far less elementary. So if you cant punish them, you are not that much better


This is will not help him. When he knows all the plans and motifs he can beat weaker opponents because they will make their fair shares of mistakes. But then he will have not a rating of 2000.

When you have a rating below 2000 (or 2200) and want win against player who are not stronger than you you face two problems:

a) The better player will be prepared and when they see a chance to go for draw in any theoretical source they will use it.

b) Weaker players do not care about modern theory. They do not read opening books but many of the better of developed a passive style meaning waiting for blunders by very weak players and hoping that a better player will take too many chance. They will play passive, make seldom a seroius positional blunder and defend their positions balky. They will only go out for an attack because of desperation or they see a winning attack. Against such a oppostion the QGD as Black is not really optimal when you are not clearly the better player (rating difference at least 200 -300 points). John Cox proposals for the Exchange are here not optimal because in the early Bf5 variations with a double pawn you dimish your winning chance too much.

It pays more to play dynamic openings with no symmetrical structures because a better understanding helps here much more so can "convert" 100 ratings much easier.

But when you have to play often against better opponents the QDG makes much more sense (even the "double pawns"). More opponents will take chances and the size of the theory in the QGD is not so heavy like in more aggressive openings.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #10 - 12/15/11 at 19:20:05
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saubhikr wrote on 12/13/11 at 02:56:21:
But friends telling me that against equal or slightly lower rated opponents, you do not get enough chance to win (not enough imbalance to force them make the mistake).

I'd rather say the opposite. The mistakes will be made, it just takes a good player to take advantage of them as the mistakes are usually far less elementary. So if you cant punish them, you are not that much better Wink
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #9 - 12/15/11 at 12:31:57
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Hi

Another example of a black win from lower ranks:
NN - Ekholm

0-1
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #8 - 12/14/11 at 09:19:10
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Well, it is true that the QGD Orthodox focuses on defense first, counter-attacks as an after-thought. It's not the most aggressive system to play as Black, but if you have the right attitude and study the various maneuvers used by GMs across the decades, you can use it to good effect in games between players U2400 FIDE.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #7 - 12/14/11 at 01:56:22
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Thanks all for your comments. I bought the eBook last night and started going through it. Seems if not points, I'll definitely gain some good chess fundamentals.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #6 - 12/13/11 at 23:49:48
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QGD an exceedingly fine opening. Its not often very unbalanced though, so few quick or trivial wins. Or of course losses!


You'll have to work for your points - fundamentally you need to be happy playing patient, accurate chess for fairly long periods of time to do well with it. Are you?

Even if not sure it could well be worth at least trying it for a bit Smiley
(esp if previously used to slightly marginal openings.).

For myself I'm not actually especially brilliant at doing that, and do find the 5 Bf4 QGD a little bit close to a slight nibble for white for comfort. But thats really is a very subjective assessment.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #5 - 12/13/11 at 22:36:38
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I guess all openings have their drawish variations.

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/chessnews/events/london-chess-classic-2011/kramnik-t...

The QGD 5 Bf4 feels very solid for white for the moment.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #4 - 12/13/11 at 16:24:17
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saubhikr wrote on 12/13/11 at 02:56:21:
Was considering buying John Cox's book on QGD and give it a try. But friends telling me that against equal or slightly lower rated opponents, you do not get enough chance to win (not enough imbalance to force them make the mistake).

Just give it a try. Buy the book, select the complicated lines and see what happens. Especially ...d5-d4 is a dangerous weapon in various settings:

Wieczorek,R (2163) - Bielinski,L (2208) [D59]
POL-chT 55th Suwalki (4), 21.09.1999

0-1

If you desperately need a win you can try the related 5...0-0 6.e3 b6 7.cxd5 exd5 arguing that f5 is not a weakness and answering the battery on the b1-h7 diagonal with ...Ne4.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #3 - 12/13/11 at 16:14:31
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Here's a simple test of any opening variation to see whether they are drawish:

Are there a number of different lines available?

Are there a number of lines that have been worked out to forced draws?

In the main lines, are there massive trades that lead to equal positions?

Can either side seek out positions with unbalanced pawn structures?

Your answers to these questions should lead you to a playable game below ~2600 FIDE.

The QGD can indeed be played for a win, even in correspondence chess.
  
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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #2 - 12/13/11 at 07:14:11
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saubhikr wrote on 12/13/11 at 02:56:21:
After several years of trying offbeat lines, I am planning to pick up a standard line which doesn't require regular "theory study" to stay alive in open tournaments. I am an IT professional with around 2000 rating. Was considering buying John Cox's book on QGD and give it a try. But friends telling me that against equal or slightly lower rated opponents, you do not get enough chance to win (not enough imbalance to force them make the mistake).

Any thouhgts?


At 2000 level you can get winning chances with almost any opening. The QGD is very solid but that's not the same as drawish.

The TMB is definitely better for creating winning chances than the Lasker though. There's also the Cambridge Springs if you want to look at other lines.
  

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Re: Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
Reply #1 - 12/13/11 at 06:09:20
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Hi Cox's book is good, he is very reputable author and plays the Tartkower himself.  If you want something with more spunk play the Tarrasch (new book out by a fellow from here) or play the Nimzo/Ragozin.  these will allow you to play them vs c4 Nf3 and d4.  The Tarrasch is an easy transpostion but with Nimzo ragozin you play the Ragozin vs c4 and Nf3.... Oh you can add the QID but I think Ragozin is sharper???  maybe.... Finally I think the opposite is true you said vs lower class opponets there is not enough play.  But by definition lower rated opponets deal with chess problems worse then higher rated opponets so your 1700 opponet may not see how to play the position but a 2000 or higher will have a plan.  I would think you could play what have you vs lower opponets and vs higher go for something more complicated that you feel comfortable with. 
Zatara
  
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Can you play for win with QGD (Tartakower etc.)
12/13/11 at 02:56:21
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After several years of trying offbeat lines, I am planning to pick up a standard line which doesn't require regular "theory study" to stay alive in open tournaments. I am an IT professional with around 2000 rating. Was considering buying John Cox's book on QGD and give it a try. But friends telling me that against equal or slightly lower rated opponents, you do not get enough chance to win (not enough imbalance to force them make the mistake).

Any thouhgts?
  
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