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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New Book on Scheveningen (Read 11121 times)
Devilman
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #30 - 03/02/12 at 21:17:11
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After 5...a6 White can transpose to an f3 hedgehog and while we are not in a rasor sharp variation like Keres Attack, I prefer to play the resulting position on the White side.
I think it's a matter of taste..
(This game is attached only for entertainment)

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #29 - 03/02/12 at 16:51:29
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It's hard for me to believe that Simon Williams' move order is actually bad for Black.  Less flexible than a Kan, sure.  And often in the Kan with 5.c4 White feels the need to play an early a2-a3, in which case Black goes ...d7-d6.  You can argue that this must be a better version of a Maroczy bind for Black, as White has arguably wasted a tempo on a2-a3, but it might not be entirely clear; sometimes White uses that move to effectively play b2-b4 and advance on the Queenside. 

So yeah, somewhat inflexible for Black, but is a slightly inferior Maroczy any worse than a Keres attack?  I doubt it.
  
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Seeley
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #28 - 03/02/12 at 16:43:31
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:17:23:
But that bishop usually ends up retreating to e7 anyway...

Sometimes it does, that's true, though the possibility of exchanging it for the Knight on c3 and messing up White's pawn structure can limit White's options. So Black is certainly making a concession by playing ...d6 so early.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:17:23:
And the finesse is aimed at Whites who play Bg5 vs the Najdorf and g4 vs Scheveningen, so a marginally improved Maroczy would hardly be a real threat.

This is a very good point, and it certainly seems like a reasonable trade-off. I suppose, ultimately, it depends on whether, as Black, you'd rather defend a double-edged position in which you're being attacked, or a much quieter position in which you've got less space and in which a useful resource for unbalancing the game in this sort of position is not available to you.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #27 - 03/02/12 at 16:17:23
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Devilman wrote on 03/02/12 at 15:19:08:
@TalJechin
The position after 5. c4 is just a good maroczy bind for white, where is black's counterplay?
The Kan move order is better, after 4...a6 5.c4 you can still bring out the king bishop...


But that bishop usually ends up retreating to e7 anyway... And the finesse is aimed at Whites who play Bg5 vs the Najdorf and g4 vs Scheveningen, so a marginally improved Maroczy would hardly be a real threat.

Here's the top nine sorted by "average rating" - as you can see Black seems to get chances too... Perhaps 5...Nc6 is best, delaying ...a6 - well, I dunno really...

  
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Devilman
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #26 - 03/02/12 at 15:19:08
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@TalJechin
The position after 5. c4 is just a good maroczy bind for white, where is black's counterplay?
The Kan move order is better, after 4...a6 5.c4 you can still bring out the king bishop...
  
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fling
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #25 - 03/02/12 at 09:21:24
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 08:45:19:
Simon Williams recently posted an interesting move order trick in the Scheveningen, i.e. playing 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6!? and after 5.Nc3 black's intending a6 and b5 with options of either playing a less theory ridden Sicilian or going into a Najdorf having avoided the Bg5 line and the Keres Attack.

I suppose 5.c4 would be a move too, but then it probably transposes to the Kan instead...


But in that case, Black is commited to playing an early ...d6, which perhaps isn't optimal. Not a big deal, though, just limits the options a bit.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #24 - 03/02/12 at 08:45:19
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Simon Williams recently posted an interesting move order trick in the Scheveningen, i.e. playing 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6!? and after 5.Nc3 black's intending a6 and b5 with options of either playing a less theory ridden Sicilian or going into a Najdorf having avoided the Bg5 line and the Keres Attack.

I suppose 5.c4 would be a move too, but then it probably transposes to the Kan instead...
  
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Devilman
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #23 - 03/02/12 at 01:49:41
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I never heard about the author before and the extract shows only some analysis of kasparov games, but there are tens of books about them...
I know it's a move by move book but i'm not gonna buy a book without improvements on the current theory.
I hope for 6...Nc6 against the Keres attack.
  
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Markovich
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #22 - 02/27/12 at 12:24:55
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LeeRoth wrote on 02/26/12 at 22:04:35:
Markovich wrote on 02/19/12 at 12:57:27:
One of my questions about the Scheveningen move order is whether, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3, the move 6...Be7 can be played. I am sure that the new book will recommend 6...a6, that being a la mode, but I want to be able to play the Scheveningen without this move so early. 6...Nc6 is one way, but one then has to defend the Sozin/Velimirovic. It would be nice to avoid that.

Yet 6...Be7 7.g4 h6 is regarded by some as worse for Black than 6.  g4 h6. I would like to know if that is true, and why. For the reason I said, I don't expect to find the answer in this book. If some good soul would address this question, I would appreciate it.



Yeah, De la Villa makes a cryptic comment that 6..Be7 is less precise than 6..Nc6 because White can transpose to a favorable Keres Attack. 

But it seems to me that 6..Be7 7.g4 h6 8.h4 reaches the same position as 6..h6 7.h4 Be7 if White now plays 8.Be3 instead of the main move 8.Rg1.  After 8.Be3 Pritchett recommends 9..d5! his exclam and there's also 9..Nc6 9.Rg1 h5 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.Bg5 Nf6 12.Qd2 when Black looks like he's a half-tempo up on a fairly standard position. 

Perhaps De la Villa had something else in mind.  8.Qe2 scores well in practice and 8.f3 transposes to an English Attack where Black has played both Be7/h6 at an early stage.  


CC-GM Magem Badals played 8.Qe2 against me and won. I mafe a fight of it but I found it difficult to generate enough counterplay. The game is probably in the data bases by now.
  

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MartinC
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #21 - 02/27/12 at 09:26:04
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Yes, thats the thing - its black who has to take advantage of whites move order really Smiley If black develops normally then he's in a bad (well sub optimal) line.

So something disruptive - like 8 ..d5 which might make sense of this for black. Or going h5 instead of h6 as mentioned above.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #20 - 02/27/12 at 01:49:47
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/27/12 at 01:21:40:
Is there any advantage to not transposing to the Najdorf-like English Attack with ...a6?


I don't like that option for Black because 8.f3 a6 9.Qd2 b5 10.0-0-0 Bb7 11.h4 Nbd7 12.Rg1 looks like an improved version for White of a standard line. 

Compare: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3 b5 8.Qd2 Nbd7 9.g4 h6 10.O-O-O Bb7 11.h4 . .

If you played 11..Be7 here, you'd get to the position above, but I don't think that you'd want to play 11..Be7 here and, in fact, 11..b4 is considered Black's best try.
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #19 - 02/27/12 at 01:21:40
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Is there any advantage to not transposing to the Najdorf-like English Attack with ...a6?
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #18 - 02/27/12 at 01:16:34
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MartinC wrote on 02/26/12 at 23:00:28:
8 f3 would certainly worry me a little as black.

Yes somehow very gently absurd that it could be more critical than h4 direct, but this isn't a set up black normally uses vs the English and that is definetly critical so....

Although in the normal move orders, he does normally have Nc6/o-o or a6 included before being faced with the decision as to whether to go h6 or not.


OK, but after 8.f3 how does White take advantage of Black's move order?  8..d5 9.Bb5 Bd7 10.e5 Nh7 11.Qd2 Nc6 seems ok for Black.   
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #17 - 02/26/12 at 23:00:28
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8 f3 would certainly worry me a little as black.

Yes somehow very gently absurd that it could be more critical than h4 direct, but this isn't a set up black normally uses vs the English and that is definetly critical so....

Although in the normal move orders, he does normally have Nc6/o-o or a6 included before being faced with the decision as to whether to go h6 or not.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #16 - 02/26/12 at 22:04:35
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Markovich wrote on 02/19/12 at 12:57:27:
One of my questions about the Scheveningen move order is whether, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3, the move 6...Be7 can be played. I am sure that the new book will recommend 6...a6, that being a la mode, but I want to be able to play the Scheveningen without this move so early. 6...Nc6 is one way, but one then has to defend the Sozin/Velimirovic. It would be nice to avoid that.

Yet 6...Be7 7.g4 h6 is regarded by some as worse for Black than 6.  g4 h6. I would like to know if that is true, and why. For the reason I said, I don't expect to find the answer in this book. If some good soul would address this question, I would appreciate it.



Yeah, De la Villa makes a cryptic comment that 6..Be7 is less precise than 6..Nc6 because White can transpose to a favorable Keres Attack. 

But it seems to me that 6..Be7 7.g4 h6 8.h4 reaches the same position as 6..h6 7.h4 Be7 if White now plays 8.Be3 instead of the main move 8.Rg1.  After 8.Be3 Pritchett recommends 9..d5! his exclam and there's also 9..Nc6 9.Rg1 h5 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.Bg5 Nf6 12.Qd2 when Black looks like he's a half-tempo up on a fairly standard position. 

Perhaps De la Villa had something else in mind.  8.Qe2 scores well in practice and 8.f3 transposes to an English Attack where Black has played both Be7/h6 at an early stage.  

  
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