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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New Book on Scheveningen (Read 11093 times)
Devilman
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #30 - 03/02/12 at 21:17:11
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After 5...a6 White can transpose to an f3 hedgehog and while we are not in a rasor sharp variation like Keres Attack, I prefer to play the resulting position on the White side.
I think it's a matter of taste..
(This game is attached only for entertainment)

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #29 - 03/02/12 at 16:51:29
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It's hard for me to believe that Simon Williams' move order is actually bad for Black.  Less flexible than a Kan, sure.  And often in the Kan with 5.c4 White feels the need to play an early a2-a3, in which case Black goes ...d7-d6.  You can argue that this must be a better version of a Maroczy bind for Black, as White has arguably wasted a tempo on a2-a3, but it might not be entirely clear; sometimes White uses that move to effectively play b2-b4 and advance on the Queenside. 

So yeah, somewhat inflexible for Black, but is a slightly inferior Maroczy any worse than a Keres attack?  I doubt it.
  
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Seeley
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #28 - 03/02/12 at 16:43:31
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:17:23:
But that bishop usually ends up retreating to e7 anyway...

Sometimes it does, that's true, though the possibility of exchanging it for the Knight on c3 and messing up White's pawn structure can limit White's options. So Black is certainly making a concession by playing ...d6 so early.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 16:17:23:
And the finesse is aimed at Whites who play Bg5 vs the Najdorf and g4 vs Scheveningen, so a marginally improved Maroczy would hardly be a real threat.

This is a very good point, and it certainly seems like a reasonable trade-off. I suppose, ultimately, it depends on whether, as Black, you'd rather defend a double-edged position in which you're being attacked, or a much quieter position in which you've got less space and in which a useful resource for unbalancing the game in this sort of position is not available to you.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #27 - 03/02/12 at 16:17:23
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Devilman wrote on 03/02/12 at 15:19:08:
@TalJechin
The position after 5. c4 is just a good maroczy bind for white, where is black's counterplay?
The Kan move order is better, after 4...a6 5.c4 you can still bring out the king bishop...


But that bishop usually ends up retreating to e7 anyway... And the finesse is aimed at Whites who play Bg5 vs the Najdorf and g4 vs Scheveningen, so a marginally improved Maroczy would hardly be a real threat.

Here's the top nine sorted by "average rating" - as you can see Black seems to get chances too... Perhaps 5...Nc6 is best, delaying ...a6 - well, I dunno really...

  
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Devilman
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #26 - 03/02/12 at 15:19:08
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@TalJechin
The position after 5. c4 is just a good maroczy bind for white, where is black's counterplay?
The Kan move order is better, after 4...a6 5.c4 you can still bring out the king bishop...
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #25 - 03/02/12 at 09:21:24
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/12 at 08:45:19:
Simon Williams recently posted an interesting move order trick in the Scheveningen, i.e. playing 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6!? and after 5.Nc3 black's intending a6 and b5 with options of either playing a less theory ridden Sicilian or going into a Najdorf having avoided the Bg5 line and the Keres Attack.

I suppose 5.c4 would be a move too, but then it probably transposes to the Kan instead...


But in that case, Black is commited to playing an early ...d6, which perhaps isn't optimal. Not a big deal, though, just limits the options a bit.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #24 - 03/02/12 at 08:45:19
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Simon Williams recently posted an interesting move order trick in the Scheveningen, i.e. playing 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd 4.Nxd4 e6!? and after 5.Nc3 black's intending a6 and b5 with options of either playing a less theory ridden Sicilian or going into a Najdorf having avoided the Bg5 line and the Keres Attack.

I suppose 5.c4 would be a move too, but then it probably transposes to the Kan instead...
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #23 - 03/02/12 at 01:49:41
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I never heard about the author before and the extract shows only some analysis of kasparov games, but there are tens of books about them...
I know it's a move by move book but i'm not gonna buy a book without improvements on the current theory.
I hope for 6...Nc6 against the Keres attack.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #22 - 02/27/12 at 12:24:55
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LeeRoth wrote on 02/26/12 at 22:04:35:
Markovich wrote on 02/19/12 at 12:57:27:
One of my questions about the Scheveningen move order is whether, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3, the move 6...Be7 can be played. I am sure that the new book will recommend 6...a6, that being a la mode, but I want to be able to play the Scheveningen without this move so early. 6...Nc6 is one way, but one then has to defend the Sozin/Velimirovic. It would be nice to avoid that.

Yet 6...Be7 7.g4 h6 is regarded by some as worse for Black than 6.  g4 h6. I would like to know if that is true, and why. For the reason I said, I don't expect to find the answer in this book. If some good soul would address this question, I would appreciate it.



Yeah, De la Villa makes a cryptic comment that 6..Be7 is less precise than 6..Nc6 because White can transpose to a favorable Keres Attack. 

But it seems to me that 6..Be7 7.g4 h6 8.h4 reaches the same position as 6..h6 7.h4 Be7 if White now plays 8.Be3 instead of the main move 8.Rg1.  After 8.Be3 Pritchett recommends 9..d5! his exclam and there's also 9..Nc6 9.Rg1 h5 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.Bg5 Nf6 12.Qd2 when Black looks like he's a half-tempo up on a fairly standard position. 

Perhaps De la Villa had something else in mind.  8.Qe2 scores well in practice and 8.f3 transposes to an English Attack where Black has played both Be7/h6 at an early stage.  


CC-GM Magem Badals played 8.Qe2 against me and won. I mafe a fight of it but I found it difficult to generate enough counterplay. The game is probably in the data bases by now.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #21 - 02/27/12 at 09:26:04
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Yes, thats the thing - its black who has to take advantage of whites move order really Smiley If black develops normally then he's in a bad (well sub optimal) line.

So something disruptive - like 8 ..d5 which might make sense of this for black. Or going h5 instead of h6 as mentioned above.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #20 - 02/27/12 at 01:49:47
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/27/12 at 01:21:40:
Is there any advantage to not transposing to the Najdorf-like English Attack with ...a6?


I don't like that option for Black because 8.f3 a6 9.Qd2 b5 10.0-0-0 Bb7 11.h4 Nbd7 12.Rg1 looks like an improved version for White of a standard line. 

Compare: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.f3 b5 8.Qd2 Nbd7 9.g4 h6 10.O-O-O Bb7 11.h4 . .

If you played 11..Be7 here, you'd get to the position above, but I don't think that you'd want to play 11..Be7 here and, in fact, 11..b4 is considered Black's best try.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #19 - 02/27/12 at 01:21:40
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Is there any advantage to not transposing to the Najdorf-like English Attack with ...a6?
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #18 - 02/27/12 at 01:16:34
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MartinC wrote on 02/26/12 at 23:00:28:
8 f3 would certainly worry me a little as black.

Yes somehow very gently absurd that it could be more critical than h4 direct, but this isn't a set up black normally uses vs the English and that is definetly critical so....

Although in the normal move orders, he does normally have Nc6/o-o or a6 included before being faced with the decision as to whether to go h6 or not.


OK, but after 8.f3 how does White take advantage of Black's move order?  8..d5 9.Bb5 Bd7 10.e5 Nh7 11.Qd2 Nc6 seems ok for Black.   
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #17 - 02/26/12 at 23:00:28
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8 f3 would certainly worry me a little as black.

Yes somehow very gently absurd that it could be more critical than h4 direct, but this isn't a set up black normally uses vs the English and that is definetly critical so....

Although in the normal move orders, he does normally have Nc6/o-o or a6 included before being faced with the decision as to whether to go h6 or not.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #16 - 02/26/12 at 22:04:35
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Markovich wrote on 02/19/12 at 12:57:27:
One of my questions about the Scheveningen move order is whether, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3, the move 6...Be7 can be played. I am sure that the new book will recommend 6...a6, that being a la mode, but I want to be able to play the Scheveningen without this move so early. 6...Nc6 is one way, but one then has to defend the Sozin/Velimirovic. It would be nice to avoid that.

Yet 6...Be7 7.g4 h6 is regarded by some as worse for Black than 6.  g4 h6. I would like to know if that is true, and why. For the reason I said, I don't expect to find the answer in this book. If some good soul would address this question, I would appreciate it.



Yeah, De la Villa makes a cryptic comment that 6..Be7 is less precise than 6..Nc6 because White can transpose to a favorable Keres Attack. 

But it seems to me that 6..Be7 7.g4 h6 8.h4 reaches the same position as 6..h6 7.h4 Be7 if White now plays 8.Be3 instead of the main move 8.Rg1.  After 8.Be3 Pritchett recommends 9..d5! his exclam and there's also 9..Nc6 9.Rg1 h5 10.gxh5 Nxh5 11.Bg5 Nf6 12.Qd2 when Black looks like he's a half-tempo up on a fairly standard position. 

Perhaps De la Villa had something else in mind.  8.Qe2 scores well in practice and 8.f3 transposes to an English Attack where Black has played both Be7/h6 at an early stage.  

  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #15 - 02/19/12 at 22:34:52
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Is 6...h6 going to be recommended for the Keres?
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #14 - 02/19/12 at 21:56:59
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 7.g4 h5
a) 8.g5 101 games, White scoring 63%.
b) 8.gxh5 37 games, 51%.

Also Pelletier writes in his (CB) annotations of Senff-Pelletier, 2000 that 8.g5 is better than 8.gxh5.
Anyhow, this thread is about the Scheveningen. Then 8.g5 looks inferior exactly because of that Be7.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #13 - 02/19/12 at 21:16:06
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Almost certainly isn't actually Smiley Ng4 surely pretty effective with g5 hanging and Nxe3 threatened?

8 gxh5 seems critical, and might work better than when black has a6 in instead. Although I don't think that can be so bad.

Black is after all a whole tempo up on the Keres main line of 6 g4 h6 7 h4 Nc6 8 Rg1 h5 9 gh . Yes perhaps Be7 isn't urgent, and Be3 more useful than either of h4/Rg1 but still Smiley
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #12 - 02/19/12 at 20:58:00
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MartinC wrote on 02/19/12 at 13:06:25:
One thought: if 7.. h5 is OK in the Nardojf move order vs 6 Be3 e6 7 g4 then surely it has to be at least plausible here?

No terribly obvious reason for Be7 to be less useful than a6, although of course the specifics could make it so.
Interesting thought that can be reversed: if after 6.Be3 Be7 7.g4 h5 Black is going to play ...a6 anyway the quesion is if Be7 hasn't limited his/her options.
Comparing is tricky anyway. With the pawn on a6 the critical response seems to be 8.g5, which might not be the case after 6...Be7.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #11 - 02/19/12 at 19:54:44
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spagh3tti wrote on 02/19/12 at 16:45:37:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/18/12 at 08:31:46:
I suppose the difference between the disadvantages of the Scheveningen and Najdorf move-orders is that Black must play against the Keres in the Scheveningen and the 6. Bg5 variation in the Najdorf. I find that most 1. e4 players are not too prepared to play against the Scheveningen, so perhaps this is also an advantage in playing it.


I also have the impression that white players simply assume that the scheveningen wont be played because of g4, but they arent really prepared for it, and it could be a good practical choice for a prepared black player.


I think that was what happened when I lost to Karavade. I had to resign before move 30...
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #10 - 02/19/12 at 16:45:37
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/18/12 at 08:31:46:
I suppose the difference between the disadvantages of the Scheveningen and Najdorf move-orders is that Black must play against the Keres in the Scheveningen and the 6. Bg5 variation in the Najdorf. I find that most 1. e4 players are not too prepared to play against the Scheveningen, so perhaps this is also an advantage in playing it.


I also have the impression that white players simply assume that the scheveningen wont be played because of g4, but they arent really prepared for it, and it could be a good practical choice for a prepared black player.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #9 - 02/19/12 at 13:06:25
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One thought: if 7.. h5 is OK in the Nardojf move order vs 6 Be3 e6 7 g4 then surely it has to be at least plausible here?

No terribly obvious reason for Be7 to be less useful than a6, although of course the specifics could make it so.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #8 - 02/19/12 at 12:57:27
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One of my questions about the Scheveningen move order is whether, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3, the move 6...Be7 can be played. I am sure that the new book will recommend 6...a6, that being a la mode, but I want to be able to play the Scheveningen without this move so early. 6...Nc6 is one way, but one then has to defend the Sozin/Velimirovic. It would be nice to avoid that.

Yet 6...Be7 7.g4 h6 is regarded by some as worse for Black than 6.  g4 h6. I would like to know if that is true, and why. For the reason I said, I don't expect to find the answer in this book. If some good soul would address this question, I would appreciate it.
« Last Edit: 02/19/12 at 14:19:47 by Markovich »  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #7 - 02/19/12 at 00:37:18
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I assume that most Scheveningen move-order players do not play 5...e6 6. Bg5 a6!?. But in the introduction in the excerpt since lines with ...a6 are recommended, I wonder how some of the lines will compare with Pritchett's Starting Out: Sicilian Scheveningen book.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #6 - 02/18/12 at 09:21:41
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Oh no. There's also being committed to a6 or not. Or if via e6/Nc6/d6 instead then commited to Nc6 or not Smiley

Heaving a6 in makes Bc4 markedly harder (if still OK) and Be2 much sharper. Having Nc6 in makes Bc4 trickier and is notably restrictive vs the English attack etc.

Up to some level the lack of preparation is no doubt true. Although if they're used to stuff like the English attack unsure quite how different the quieter approaches to the Keres are.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #5 - 02/18/12 at 08:31:46
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I suppose the difference between the disadvantages of the Scheveningen and Najdorf move-orders is that Black must play against the Keres in the Scheveningen and the 6. Bg5 variation in the Najdorf. I find that most 1. e4 players are not too prepared to play against the Scheveningen, so perhaps this is also an advantage in playing it.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #4 - 02/18/12 at 03:07:50
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/18/12 at 01:09:42:
With regards to the Keres Attack, when I used to play 1. e4, I played the Keres against Eesha Karavade in 2008 and I was lost in the first 20 moves. If I remember correctly it was 6. g4 h6. Obviously I must have made serious mistakes in the game, but I am wondering about the status of the line itself. I always had the impression that the Keres Attack refuted the Scheveningen move-order and caused Najdorf move-order to be used instead.


The Keres Attack is challenging, but not a refutation.  There are plenty of strong GMs willing to play the Scheveningen move-order.   Wink

      

 
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #3 - 02/18/12 at 01:09:42
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With regards to the Keres Attack, when I used to play 1. e4, I played the Keres against Eesha Karavade in 2008 and I was lost in the first 20 moves. If I remember correctly it was 6. g4 h6. Obviously I must have made serious mistakes in the game, but I am wondering about the status of the line itself. I always had the impression that the Keres Attack refuted the Scheveningen move-order and caused Najdorf move-order to be used instead.
  

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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #2 - 02/17/12 at 10:14:54
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I think trending towards being viewed as a bit less critical recently? Maybe part of that due to the English attack.

Of course the book itself would be very useful even if the Keres happened to win by force Wink There's so many other ways to get these positions and they really are fundamental to the Sicilian.
  
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Re: New Book on Scheveningen
Reply #1 - 02/17/12 at 10:01:42
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I am really looking forward to this book. Lorin is concentrating on lines with ...a6, so it will be interesting to see how his recommendations compare with Ftacnik's in his book on the Najdorf - I presume the forthcoming update to GM Rep 6 will continue to go mostly with ...e6 rather then ...e5 lines.

Personally I have never felt under more pressure from 6. g4 than from the other main lines for white. I play 6...h6 and get normal Sicilian positions; the games I've lost haven't been because of the opening.
  
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New Book on Scheveningen
02/17/12 at 06:43:01
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New book from the Move By Move series on Scheveningen Sicilian: http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Sicilian_Scheveningen%3A_Move_by_Mo... to be published March 2012 in Europe.

I am interested in this book on how to answer the Keres Attack for Scheveningen players, since I have always heard that this is why most players play the Scheveningen systems against 6. Be2, 6. g3, and 6. f4 via the Najdorf move order. Is the Keres Attack decreasing in power as the most critical line?
  

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