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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses? (Read 7516 times)
emary
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #14 - 03/28/12 at 10:45:00
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I don't claim White's advantage, but nethertheless 4.Qc2 works !

4.Qc2/Qb3 Slav: The misplaced queen at c4 is a dynamic factor and
many Slav players cannot profit from it. They are not used to a game where White has not done a lasting committment.

Please compare:

Weak b4 square in the mainline Slav.

Slow Slav: Bc1 shut in.   
Of course with the bishop pair White is very solid
but winning these positions is another story. 
Don't forget that Slow Slav is very common,
because  Colle-players don't have much choice. 




  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #13 - 03/28/12 at 09:26:02
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emary wrote on 03/28/12 at 09:09:22:
4...dxc4 is the theoretical main answer of course and a timesaver too, but it has occured only in about 30 % of my games. Maybe its equal, but with his extra center pawn White has something to play for, an important idea is to delay Nc3 with the idea to deny Black the b5-b4 advance with tempo.   

As a Slav player, you should be prepared to play certain Semi-Slav set-ups. An extra center pawn isn't really anything scary for most Slav players I think (or Caro-Kann players for that matter). The queen is a bit misplaced on c4 as well. On the other hand, the struggle might be a bit different from the main lines. Since I've lost to this line once, I have decided to study it for both sides (because I also like the Catalan from White's perspective).

I agree though, probably quite effective under 2200.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #12 - 03/28/12 at 09:09:22
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Hello,
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Qc2 or 4.Qb3 is the way to go
(According to Kaufman this is "The lazy man's answer to the Slav"):

Some sources from  White's perspective:
Kaufman: The Chess Advantage in Black and White 2nd edition,
Wojo's weapons volume 1
(Khalifman: Opening according to Kramnik
There are some interesting lines via transposition if you don't want to play a fianchetto at all cost)

And some from Black's perspective:
Lakdawala: The Slav
Vigorito: Play the Semi-Slav,
his survey has been my starting point for the White side !

My practical experience with opponents from 1600 - 2100:

About 50% of my opponents were out of theory at move 4 and even many Slav-players played  4.Qc2 e6 and
not 4.Qc2 g6 with the idea to follow up with Bf5.

4...dxc4 is the theoretical main answer of course and a timesaver too, but it has occured only in about 30 % of my games. Maybe its equal, but with his extra center pawn White has something to play for, an important idea is to delay Nc3 with the idea to deny Black the b5-b4 advance with tempo.   

Kaufman states that 4.Qb3 works better against a Slav player and
4.Qc2 works better against a Semi-Slav-player.
Theoretically correct, but from my experience many Black player
go for 4...e6 anyway and therefore I prefer 4.Qc2.

There are some bold gambit lines too,
some preparation for White is necessary: 

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Qc2 dxc4 5.e4
Coverage from the Black side in
Lakdawala: The Slav
I have tried this in a few rapid games, against unprepared opponents it has been good enough for interesting games. 

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.Nc3 e6 5.g3
Coverage from the Black side in
Vigorito: Play the Semi-Slav

  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #11 - 03/28/12 at 03:15:14
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/27/12 at 17:23:40:
kylemeister wrote on 03/27/12 at 15:40:35:
fairchess wrote on 03/27/12 at 15:07:58:
Then, what’s black’s continuation which makes this set up dubious?
1.d4      d5
2.c4      c6
3.Nf3      Nf6
4.g3      …?


4...Bf5 and 4...Bg4 have been considered quite respectable (aside from 4...dc transposing to Catalan stuff).  Reminds me of a comment by John Cox, something like that after 4. g3 Bf5 White is heading for a "boring lukewarm fiasco."


I love the British.  Smiley


Smiley It is certainly considerably easier to do that from a distance.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #10 - 03/27/12 at 19:50:32
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?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #9 - 03/27/12 at 17:23:40
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kylemeister wrote on 03/27/12 at 15:40:35:
fairchess wrote on 03/27/12 at 15:07:58:
Then, what’s black’s continuation which makes this set up dubious?
1.d4      d5
2.c4      c6
3.Nf3      Nf6
4.g3      …?


4...Bf5 and 4...Bg4 have been considered quite respectable (aside from 4...dc transposing to Catalan stuff).  Reminds me of a comment by John Cox, something like that after 4. g3 Bf5 White is heading for a "boring lukewarm fiasco."


I love the British.  Smiley
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #8 - 03/27/12 at 15:40:35
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fairchess wrote on 03/27/12 at 15:07:58:
Then, what’s black’s continuation which makes this set up dubious?
1.d4      d5
2.c4      c6
3.Nf3      Nf6
4.g3      …?


4...Bf5 and 4...Bg4 have been considered quite respectable (aside from 4...dc transposing to Catalan stuff).  Reminds me of a comment by John Cox, something like that after 4. g3 Bf5 White is heading for a "boring lukewarm fiasco."
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #7 - 03/27/12 at 15:07:58
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Then, what’s black’s continuation which makes this set up dubious?
1.d4      d5
2.c4      c6
3.Nf3      Nf6
4.g3      …?
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #6 - 03/21/12 at 15:57:15
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fairchess wrote on 03/21/12 at 15:11:43:
Actually what I intend to do is to arrive to The Catalan by transposition, not necessarily starting with 1.d4 2.c4 3.g3, that is, 3.Nf3 and eventually 4.Qc2 or 4.g3 depending on what black plays. In any case, delaying the development of the queen's knight, as you well say, this knight stands better on d2 than on c3.


This is what is recommended in Wojo's Weapons 1. I played against this last year without knowing what to do. It is solid for White, but maybe not the most testing method.

The knight might be well placed on c3 if followed up by e4 later on, assuming Black allows a Closed Catalan. It depends on Black's set-up.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #5 - 03/21/12 at 15:11:43
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fling wrote on 03/21/12 at 14:12:15:
Chessexplained wrote on 03/21/12 at 14:02:08:
You can try for similar structures against the slav with an early Qc2, for instance after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2, with lines like dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5 6.g3 being rather similar to a catalan. On 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 you can go 4.Qc2 as well, or even 4.g3 which is sharper of course. Against the QGA you might investigate 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qa4+, after which Nc6 is maybe the critical move, but others would be catalan-like again.


I agree that it makes sense for White to try Qc2 once Black has played ...c6 and go for a Catalan type position, since the antidote usually involves meeting Qc2 with ...c5. On the other hand, the queen might be exposed on c4. All in all, this has been played a lot, but it is another variation, albeit with a Catalan feel.

I think what the OP intended was to play was 1.d4 2.c4 3.g3 against 1...d5, 2....c6 or 2....dxc4 set-ups by Black, which theoretically is considered sub-optimal, even though Black doesn't have ...c5 as a counter in one go.


Actually what I intend to do is to arrive to The Catalan by transposition, not necessarily starting with 1.d4 2.c4 3.g3, that is, 3.Nf3 and eventually 4.Qc2 or 4.g3 depending on what black plays. In any case, delaying the development of the queen's knight, as you well say, this knight stands better on d2 than on c3.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #4 - 03/21/12 at 14:12:15
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Chessexplained wrote on 03/21/12 at 14:02:08:
You can try for similar structures against the slav with an early Qc2, for instance after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2, with lines like dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5 6.g3 being rather similar to a catalan. On 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 you can go 4.Qc2 as well, or even 4.g3 which is sharper of course. Against the QGA you might investigate 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qa4+, after which Nc6 is maybe the critical move, but others would be catalan-like again.


I agree that it makes sense for White to try Qc2 once Black has played ...c6 and go for a Catalan type position, since the antidote usually involves meeting Qc2 with ...c5. On the other hand, the queen might be exposed on c4. All in all, this has been played a lot, but it is another variation, albeit with a Catalan feel.

I think what the OP intended was to play was 1.d4 2.c4 3.g3 against 1...d5, 2....c6 or 2....dxc4 set-ups by Black, which theoretically is considered sub-optimal, even though Black doesn't have ...c5 as a counter in one go.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #3 - 03/21/12 at 14:02:08
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You can try for similar structures against the slav with an early Qc2, for instance after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qc2, with lines like dxc4 5.Qxc4 Bf5 6.g3 being rather similar to a catalan. On 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 you can go 4.Qc2 as well, or even 4.g3 which is sharper of course. Against the QGA you might investigate 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Qa4+, after which Nc6 is maybe the critical move, but others would be catalan-like again.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #2 - 03/21/12 at 12:14:19
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It is true that ...c5 is considered a strong counter in some of the Catalan positions, especially after an early Qc2 by White. If Black plays ...c6 instead, ...c5 will mean a loss of tempo apparently. But in this case Black can often grab the c4-pawn and hold on to it. Also, Black may choose to place the light-squared bishop outside of the pawn chain by ...Bf5 or ...Bg4. I think this has been discussed here before.

As pointed out by thibdb, the knight is also not always optimally placed on c3 in the Catalan type structures. This is especially true after something like 1. d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3. Nf3 e6 4. Nc3 as seen in the Noteboom. This will also be a problem when White fianchettoes the bishop on g2 in combination with Nc3.
  
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Re: The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
Reply #1 - 03/21/12 at 11:43:55
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After, say 1. d4-d5 2. c4-c6 3.Nf3-Nf6, white still does not know whether Black will go for a Slav (Bc8 to f5 or g4) or for a Semi-Slav (with e6).
Against a "real" Slav, the king's fianchetto does not work so good and it can even be a burden to white. And so, you have to wait until Black declares his intentions. After 4.Nc3-e6, white could go for a Catalan but the knight on c3 may not be on the right place there (in the Catalan the knight is often better placed on d2).
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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The Catalan against all 1…d5 responses?
03/21/12 at 11:31:05
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I just had a quick look at Avrukh’s books, as most of you know, a two volume repertoire for white with 1d4. As Avrukh himself explains at the introduction, his repertoire is based, whenever possible, on the fianchetto of the king’s bishop. That is, The Catalan, and the Bg2 variations against Grunfeld, Kings Indian, Benoni, etc.
However I have seen two chapters dedicated to The Slav and the QG Accepted. My question here is: Is it not possible to use this Catalan / Fianchetto system against these two defences? What are the critical lines which don’t allow to play in Catalan style?

Well, after thinking a little bit about it,
1-      It seems to me that an early c5 by black in the QGD might be the reason why a white fianchetto would not work, do you think the same?
2-      Where is the critical line in the Slav that needed a separate chapter for the Slav in Avrukh’s books? I always thought one can transpose to the Catalan when black adopts a Slav structure. What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your comments.
  
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