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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine 2.Nc3 (Read 50215 times)
Markovich
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #20 - 03/02/13 at 15:38:40
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It has been observed here before this that 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 doesn't necessarily lead to a French.  Or at any rate, the particular lines of the French that White can "force" Black to accept are not considered very challenging for Black.

It someone just loves to play the Vienna or the Four Knights AND is confident against 2...d5, then 2.Nc3 makes sense.  But those 1.e4 things are peculiar preferences, and objectively, I'm not sure that 2...d5 is worse for Black.

The main objection to 2.Nc3 is that objectively, 2.e5 is a much better move.

I think that it's very easy to be a 1...e5 player if you know you know that White will play 2.Nc3.  Anyway, everyone should understand at least the bare bones of 1...e5 play, and not much more is needed against the systems white can reach after 2.Nc3 e5.

Bagirov calls 2...d5 the "Scandinavian Variation," by the way.

« Last Edit: 03/02/13 at 18:40:28 by Markovich »  

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MNb
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #19 - 03/02/13 at 12:29:36
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
And as White my stats after 2.Nc3 are excellent.  Smiley

Indeed, when I return to OTB chess I seriously contemplate 2.Nc3 as well.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
because the Vienna Game (2...e5) is not likely to give him what he wants.[/i]"

First of all I doubt if 2...d5 is likely to give Black what he/she wants. But when I played the Alekhine I had not much trouble playing for a win against the Vienna. Perhaps that says more about the level my opponents and me are playing, but still.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
Actually, for me, the whole point of 1...e5 would be to face the Spanish, I get bored with all the 4Ns, 3Ns and whathaveyous.

Well, yes, then 2...e5 doesn't make any sense. I left 1...e5 because of the Spanish.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
and imo allowing e5-e6 doesn't hurt Black's winning chances, rather the opposite, even if it may also increase White's...

Agreed. The one time I tried it I won in 15 moves or something, but I always have had huge doubts about a few lines.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
Besides, Black does have some interesting ideas with ...c5 next move without a preliminary e6

I saved the most interesting bit last. I checked with both SDO and my database. Neither after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nd7 4.f4 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 nor after 4.d4 c5 5.Nf3 I see a way to avoid the French that is at least as good. But hopefully you know more than me and are willing to share those interesting ideas? One thing I looked at is ...d4, but Ne4 always looks like a promising answer.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #18 - 03/02/13 at 11:56:41
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MNb wrote on 03/01/13 at 17:03:22:
TalJechin wrote on 03/01/13 at 10:37:21:
Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response,

According to your own logic - why not 1...e6 then? After all 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 probably will not lead to the Ruy Lopez.


Since I already play 1...e6 far too often. Smiley Besides, Black does have some interesting ideas with ...c5 next move without a preliminary e6 and imo allowing e5-e6 doesn't hurt Black's winning chances, rather the opposite, even if it may also increase White's...

Actually, for me, the whole point of 1...e5 would be to face the Spanish, I get bored with all the 4Ns, 3Ns and whathaveyous.

Soltis sums it up well, I think "An Alekhine specialist almost certainly likes positional imbalances and quick counterplay. He may have a problem with 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3!? because the Vienna Game (2...e5) is not likely to give him what he wants."

And as White my stats after 2.Nc3 are excellent.  Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #17 - 03/01/13 at 17:03:22
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TalJechin wrote on 03/01/13 at 10:37:21:
Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response,

According to your own logic - why not 1...e6 then? After all 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 probably will not lead to the Ruy Lopez.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #16 - 03/01/13 at 10:37:21
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Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response, while 2...e5 requires Black to be a 1...e5 player - and why play 1...Nf6 then? Even 2...d6 is more flexible as it doesn't have to become a Pirc.

Anyway, the reason I post is the following game with the supposedly bad Ne4, played in the final of Viking Cup recently. Hector surprisingly refrained from the approved 4.Nce2 against his World Champion opponent, and got into big trouble. He was saved by a fingerfehler the illegal 24...0-0 cost two extra minutes and a king move. Btw, the "!"s etc are JK's from a Facebook update.

  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #15 - 03/01/13 at 01:18:23
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Indeed, after 2...e5 3.Bc4 Black should just play 3...Nc6, and then if 4.d3 angling for f4, then 4...Bb4.  4.Nf3 is not a good line: 4...Nxe4, especially as players who meet the Alekhine Defence with 2.Nc3 probably won't be aware of the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit with 5.0-0 (which is probably White's best try in that line) and will just continue 5.Nxe4 d5.

For what it's worth, 2...e5 is what has primarily put me off meeting the Alekhine with 2.Nc3.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #14 - 03/01/13 at 00:10:33
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kylemeister wrote on 02/26/13 at 17:09:30:
one might suspect that people who play 2. Nc3 and are unaware of its transpositional possibilities, if they ever get as far as 2...e5 3. Bc4 Nxe4 4. Qh5 Nd6, would be likely to play 5. Qxe5+.


Playing the Alekhine is likely to provoke the Vienna if you want it. For a more difficult game for both players, it's probably better to enter potential Kings' Gambit theory with 3. .. Nc6 . White could just play 3 .. Nc6 4. Nf3 which is just a Two Knights. So Alekhine's Defence can be used as a move order trick for 1. ... e5 players.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #13 - 02/26/13 at 17:09:30
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Well as to "hardscrabble," one might suspect that people who play 2. Nc3 and are unaware of its transpositional possibilities, if they ever get as far as 2...e5 3. Bc4 Nxe4 4. Qh5 Nd6, would be likely to play 5. Qxe5+.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #12 - 02/26/13 at 16:08:10
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I'm hitting the anti-Alekhine 2.Nc3 quite a bit online. I've played around with a few responses, but it seems that generally the avoiders don't even realize they are being transposed into a Vienna or out-of-book side line. I used to play open lines quite a bit so boning a few hard scrabble (franco-drac) Vienna defenses smells like my best play for the point.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #11 - 11/05/12 at 03:05:42
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As to the OP, 2...d6 makes no sense to me. If that is your thing, why not play 1...d6 and skip Alekine's altogether?
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #10 - 11/05/12 at 00:21:53
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Objection, m'lud! I didn't say 2...d5 was bad exactly; I said that 2...d5 3 e5 Ne4 was bad. 3...Nfd7 is fine, and as I said White can't actually get a Steinitz French, or at least not the modern line with f4/Nf3/Be3. He can of course punt the e6 sacrifices, or he can play 4 d4 c5 5 Nf3 (which I would call a French Two Knights rather than a Steinitz, but perhaps I'm wrong about that), or 5 f4 cxd4 6 Nb5, but that's not quite the same - Black can go 6...Nc6 7 Nf3 Ndb8!?, for example.

Still, it's annoying that White can make you play another opening, I agree. Baburin always takes an impressively (ex-)Soviet approach about this, and has 2...e5 straight out there.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #9 - 11/04/12 at 16:22:58
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kylemeister wrote on 11/02/12 at 14:38:51:
Eh?  4. d5 is a sort of (Franco-) Benoni which has been considered slightly better for White (of note is that Black needs to play 4...d6 rather than 4...ed).  4. dc seems promising as well ...

In both cases the knight is already on c3 which makes it slightly different and imo a little more favourable for black than the analogous lines. Personally I dont trust dxc5 as Bxc5 immediately challenges f7 (with Qb6 for example)

Still 2..e5 is imo the best answer indeed.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #8 - 11/03/12 at 02:06:36
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Well. There is no doubt that 2...e5 is the best move. How could Black be unhappy with an open game and neither a Spanish nor even an Italian? But there are often good practical reasons to prefer 2...d5, so this is the move I often play.

Lately I've been investigating 3.e5 Ne4 4.Nce2 f6 with a view toward experimenting with it.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #7 - 11/02/12 at 14:38:51
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Eh?  4. d5 is a sort of (Franco-) Benoni which has been considered slightly better for White (of note is that Black needs to play 4...d6 rather than 4...ed).  4. dc seems promising as well ...
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #6 - 11/02/12 at 13:26:49
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IsaVulpes wrote on 10/31/12 at 17:36:23:
Now I found an Andrew-Martin-Videosample on 2. ..e6. The positions arising after (the by him so called 'critical test') 3.e5 look like something I can dabble around with,
but 3.d4 doesn't look all too pleasing; transposing into a classical french is -again- something I'm not too fond of, and the 'natural' 

After 3.d4 there is also 3..c5. After 4.dxc5 you have a sicilian type position and after 4.d5 a Pirc.
  

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