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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Alekhine 2.Nc3 (Read 17504 times)
joe61
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #50 - 08/18/16 at 08:31:30
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1 e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e5 Nfd7 4 d4 e6 5 f4 c5.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #49 - 08/18/16 at 08:26:34
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If you're not worried about playing a French Advance variation then 1 e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e5 Nd7 4 d4 e6 5 f4 c5 is fine.

Best book I've read on Alekhine's Defense is by Nigel Davies. Alekhine's Defense, published by Everyman Chess.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #48 - 08/15/16 at 13:10:10
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Hi.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 (rare and bad) is a non-line. This is true.
It would have been more accurate for me to write possible lines of play or something instead of just possible lines.


1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6 3.d4 d6 4.f4 g6 Is going to be a bit better for white positionally with poor long term prospects for black imo. So I'm up for signing a declaration that black is a bit worse.

Black can instead go (4...Qa5) which is by far the most common move in the position after (4.f4). It's quite a special line which can be fun to play once in a while.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #47 - 08/14/16 at 17:31:25
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That sounds like an overestimation of the normalcy.  E.g. 3. d4 d5 reminds me of an old citation Tal-Campomanes (with 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 perhaps being awarded a question mark), and surely, say, 3. d4 d6 4. f4 g6 is worse for Black.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #46 - 08/14/16 at 09:21:03
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Hello.

AF wrote on 08/12/16 at 06:57:39:
After 1e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 what about 2... c6 !?
in order to play a kind of accelerated Pirc?

Probably the play will go into normal lines quite quick. Possible lines:

1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 c6

3.e5 Nd5 Is a definite possibility.

3.d4 g6 Will become a Pirc when black plays d6 (of course with this move order white can strike immediately with 4.e5 if he wants and c6 may not be optimal if the game goes into a Pirc).

3.d4 d6 Is usually called the Czech or Pribyl variation though here it is entirely plausible for black to go for g6 in the near future, almost regardless of what white plays. When g6 is played the game can be regarded as having gone into a Pirc.

3.d4 d5 Is a Caro Kann.

3.d4 b5?! 4.e5 looks strong.

3.Nf3 d6 Commits white to a Nf3 system if black later goes into the Pirc with g6.

3.Nf3 d5 Is a Caro Kann.

So yea there are chances to go into the Pirc (along with some other openings) which you can try and aim for with 2...c6 if you don't like the other lines after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #45 - 08/14/16 at 05:55:01
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I doubt that I've ever seen 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 c6 in my life, but I notice that a couple of old-school books (ECO and NCO) gave 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. Nc3 c6 as slightly better for White, albeit giving different lines.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #44 - 08/14/16 at 03:04:57
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Does this line 1e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 c6 !? have a name?
What do opening books say about it ?
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #43 - 08/12/16 at 11:30:20
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AF wrote on 08/12/16 at 06:57:39:
After 1e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 what about 2... c6 !?
in order to play a kind of accelerated Pirc?



How do you meet 3. e5 though?

The reply 3. .. Nd5 is most popular and there are a fair few examples, given that the position also arises from the move order 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. Nc3 c6 .

After 4. Nxd5 cxd5, the resulting position is far more like an Alekhine than a Pirc.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #42 - 08/12/16 at 06:57:39
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After 1e4 Nf6 2 Nc3 what about 2... c6 !?
in order to play a kind of accelerated Pirc?
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #41 - 05/16/16 at 16:45:35
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And 3.e5 Nfd7! with the lines Markovich pointed out.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #40 - 04/04/16 at 23:02:06
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2...d5 for me
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #39 - 12/05/15 at 01:51:02
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 12/04/15 at 23:10:05:
I am not sure if you thought about this, but I play the Pirc and rarely the Alekhin. But if in case 2. Sc3, you can always transpose to the Pirc with 2...d6, if you are willing to play the Pirc.

If you play 2. Sc3 you have to be able to transpose to a lod of other openings. The Four Pawns Attack I played when I played 1. e4 and I say it is very dangerous for White. If you F up just a little, your home position can collapse like a pack of cards. Or at least this happened to me a lot. I have very few wins against the Alekhin  Cheesy

As a White player, if I played 1. e4 and prepared 2. Sc3 against an Alekhin player and she played 2...d6, I would be a quite annoyed, having to now play against the Pirc suddenly. Drink for thought.


Funny enough i had thought about giving the pirc a spin. I really like Vigus's books on the opening and having played the Dragon, KI and Benoni when i was at uni 20 years ago, i think it might be the sort of thing i would like to play.

My only concern with the pirc is that there are so many good lines for white, it might require a lot more work than a gradual transition to lines in the vienna or four knights. Reading a lot of the threads in the pirc section, a lot of the established Pirc players seem to see it as much a curse as a blessing, although i note that you have a good record with it.

If i switch to the pirc, i am not sure it would be of much benefit playing through an Alekhine/ 2nc3 move order as i would think that it would allow white to play their usual line against the pirc if they have one, or just make it up as they go along with a classical which is probably easier for them than trying to play an open game or french position that they dont have too much familiarity with (i am much weaker than you, so my opponents usually have problems when move ordered!).

  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #38 - 12/04/15 at 23:10:05
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I am not sure if you thought about this, but I play the Pirc and rarely the Alekhin. But if in case 2. Sc3, you can always transpose to the Pirc with 2...d6, if you are willing to play the Pirc.

If you play 2. Sc3 you have to be able to transpose to a lod of other openings. The Four Pawns Attack I played when I played 1. e4 and I say it is very dangerous for White. If you F up just a little, your home position can collapse like a pack of cards. Or at least this happened to me a lot. I have very few wins against the Alekhin  Cheesy

As a White player, if I played 1. e4 and prepared 2. Sc3 against an Alekhin player and she played 2...d6, I would be a quite annoyed, having to now play against the Pirc suddenly. Drink for thought.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #37 - 12/04/15 at 21:43:37
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Thanks Tauromachie
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #36 - 12/04/15 at 20:21:25
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There are quite a few lines one should know at least in some detail after 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6

A) 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qe3 and now either 5..Be7!? or the Mainline 5..Bb4

B) 3.g3 can be met by the straightforward 3..d5 or the slower 3..Nc6 (followed  by Bc5 and a possibly knight Jump to d4)

C) 3.d3 is some kind of a reversed philidor.. just normal development should be decent


D) 3.Bc4 and now 3..Nxe4 4.Qh5 Nd6 or the pragmatic 3..Nc6 4.d3 Na5

E) 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 (4.exd5!?) Nxe4 and here you have to explore 5.d3, 5.Qf3 and the main move 5.Nf3 Be7 / Bc5

F) 3.Nf3 Nc6 (3..Bb4 is an alternative)

F1) 4.Nxe5 / 4.a3!? / 4.Bc4 Nxe4 ( a usefull trick to know)

F2) 4.d4 scotch for knights, enough good lines to chose against

F3) 4.Bb5 Nd4/Bb4/Bd6/Bc5

Just as a starting point.

  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #35 - 12/04/15 at 19:46:59
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I somewhat reluctantly play the Alekhine as my primary defence against 1.e4 and usually respond to 2.Nc3 with d5.

Given approximately 85% of my games are in this particular line I am now thinking of playing 2....e5 instead and playing some open games.

If i go down that path, just how many lines would i have to prepare for? (i dont have much knowledge of open games and while i know that there are transpositions to Vienna, and four knights I dont know if there are others or if these also split into sub variations).

Grateful for any help!
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #34 - 07/08/14 at 13:12:28
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IMJohnCox wrote on 11/05/12 at 00:21:53:
Still, it's annoying that White can make you play another opening, I agree. Baburin always takes an impressively (ex-)Soviet approach about this, and has 2...e5 straight out there.

I realise this is rather an old post, but I'm belatedly wondering whether that's a typo: according to my database Baburin nearly always plays 2...d5, as did Bagirov. So maybe that's the (ex-)Soviet approach?
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #33 - 03/17/13 at 23:38:31
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It's not my problem these days, as I abandoned 2.Nc3 a couple of years ago in favour of 2.e5 lines (admittedly mainly the Four Pawns Attack, which many don't recommend against prepared high-level opposition, but it's got to be sounder and more critical than 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4, and continuing the money analogy, it's more like grabbing it in the most audacious way and hoping nobody notices).

As for the main lines under discussion, I get the impression that the variation 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Ne4 still allows Black to get a relatively unbalanced position in which Black can encourage White to over-extend the central pawns.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #32 - 03/17/13 at 14:09:43
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After 1.e4 Nf6, I can only marvel that anyone would prefer 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4?! to 2.e5!

There is money lying on the street, and not only do I refuse to pick it up, but I throw down some more.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #31 - 03/16/13 at 01:43:54
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Fromper wrote on 03/11/13 at 21:35:16:
SWJediknight wrote on 03/01/13 at 01:18:23:
For what it's worth, 2...e5 is what has primarily put me off meeting the Alekhine with 2.Nc3.

Funny, I'm the opposite. The fact that I play the Vienna against 1. ... e5 is the reason I'm sticking with 2. Nc3 against the Alekhine. Although ironically, my first ever Vienna game was an Alekhine where I fumbled into it not knowing what I was doing. I think that was also my first time ever beating someone rated over 1900 in a USCF tourney, IIRC. Until recently, I mostly played the Italian/Two Knights on the white side of the open games.

I just have to decide on a preferred line against 2. ... d5. For now, I'm sticking with the Blackmar-Diemer line with 3. d4. I do this against the Scandinavian, too (1. e4 d5 2. d4 etc). Not the best, I know, but it's usually entertaining. And below 1800, you can get away with a lot that won't work against a grandmaster. But I know if I want to start beating 2000+ rated opponents regularly, I'll eventually have to study the Alekhine and Scandy enough to know how to face them for real. They just don't come up often enough for me to bother with that kind of study yet.


That makes sense to me- I just wasn't comfortable with going into a Vienna Game but for those who like playing the Vienna, 2.Nc3 makes a great deal of sense.
When I played 2.Nc3 I also met 2...d5 with 3.d4 (I think that Black's independent option 3...Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 is no better or worse than the standard BDG after 5.Be3).

Another possibility that Black must be aware of after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 is simply 3.exd5 transposing to the line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3.  It's not a particularly dangerous line for Black, but may frustrate those who play the Alekhine Defence primarily with the aim of generating unbalanced positions.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #30 - 03/14/13 at 19:48:43
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I would have thought that after 1. e4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e5 Ne4 4. Nce2 Nc5 5. d4 Ne6, if Black were offered ...Nc6 as an extra move, he would decline.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #29 - 03/14/13 at 19:29:45
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Kam wrote on 03/14/13 at 11:53:40:
       
             Hector is renown for playing 2.Nc3 against the Alekhine, but in a recent game as mentioned earlier by
TalJechin (reply 16)  he unexpectedly played the line  1.  e4 Nf6 2.  Nc3 d5 3.  e5 Ne4 4.  Qf3 Nxc3  5.  dxc3


Qf3 looks more "natural" than Nce2 blocking all the white square lines. It was the choice of Mickey Adams some while back.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #28 - 03/14/13 at 19:18:54
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Alias wrote on 11/01/12 at 07:59:06:
I play 2...d5.

3.e5 Ne4 4.Nce2 Nc5 5.d4 Ne6 is one weird line I've played a few times with not too bad results. (g6 and Ng7 is an idea!)


After 4. Nce2 I always play 4... Nc6 when white players usually go for 5.d3 (5.d4 f6) Nc5 6. d4 Ne6 arriving at the same position with an extra move (of course the plan is the same, g6, Ng7, h5 - esp. if white goes for f4)
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #27 - 03/14/13 at 11:53:40
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           Last year, I had seriously looked at the line
1.e4 Nf6  2.Nc3 d5  3.e5 Ne4  4.Nce2 f6  5.d3 Ng5
6.Bxg5 fg  7.h4 g4  8.Nf4 (d4) d4. The continuations  9.g3 Nc6  9.e6  Qd6   9.c3 Nc6 and 9.h5 were
investigated and black seems to be okay.
     I would be very interested to know if Cox does know of a refutation or advantageous system against this line. Cox’s view is supported by the book “Alekhine Alert” by Taylor, who mentions 8…. Bf5, but overlooks 8…. d4. 
Bogdanov mentions 8.d4 and he appears to slightly favour white, but black’s position should be playable.      
             Hector is renown for playing 2.Nc3 against the Alekhine, but in a recent game as mentioned earlier by
TalJechin (reply 16)  he unexpectedly played the line  1.  e4 Nf6 2.  Nc3 d5 3.  e5 Ne4 4.  Qf3 Nxc3  5.  dxc3

The position is usually attained by the “modest” side line  1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.Nc3 Nxc3   4.dxc3 d5  5.Qf3  etc.   
The same position was reached in Hector-Jessen, Copenhagen, 2000, but I am not sure which move order was used.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #26 - 03/11/13 at 21:35:16
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/01/13 at 01:18:23:
For what it's worth, 2...e5 is what has primarily put me off meeting the Alekhine with 2.Nc3.

Funny, I'm the opposite. The fact that I play the Vienna against 1. ... e5 is the reason I'm sticking with 2. Nc3 against the Alekhine. Although ironically, my first ever Vienna game was an Alekhine where I fumbled into it not knowing what I was doing. I think that was also my first time ever beating someone rated over 1900 in a USCF tourney, IIRC. Until recently, I mostly played the Italian/Two Knights on the white side of the open games.

I just have to decide on a preferred line against 2. ... d5. For now, I'm sticking with the Blackmar-Diemer line with 3. d4. I do this against the Scandinavian, too (1. e4 d5 2. d4 etc). Not the best, I know, but it's usually entertaining. And below 1800, you can get away with a lot that won't work against a grandmaster. But I know if I want to start beating 2000+ rated opponents regularly, I'll eventually have to study the Alekhine and Scandy enough to know how to face them for real. They just don't come up often enough for me to bother with that kind of study yet.

  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #25 - 03/10/13 at 00:26:16
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White has a non Vienna option on move 3 against 2. ..e5. Play 3. d4 exd4 4. Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qe3 and transpose to a main line of the Centre Attack. Only useful if you know, understand and trust the Centre Attack.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #24 - 03/04/13 at 01:40:55
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MNb wrote on 03/03/13 at 22:01:00:
Markovich wrote on 03/03/13 at 17:30:56:
1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.d4 c5 5.f4 cxd4! is not a French and is fine for Black.

How fine is Black after 4.f4 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 cxd4 and after 4.d4 c5 5.dxc5, inviting the Two Knights with e6 6.Nf3 ? I am asking this from the perspective of White.


Imho Black is quite fine either way.  In my db White scores 50% of 14 in the first, 29% of 19 in the second.  Irrespective of the statistics, some time ago I studied these possiblities and concluded that Black was O.K. Not that my opinion is definative, of course.

Black must, of course, be well prepared for 4.e6.  Knowing your tastes as I believe I do, I think you should consider that.

See https://alekhinedefense.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=33321&b=0&c=33321&d=0
« Last Edit: 03/04/13 at 03:19:54 by Markovich »  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #23 - 03/03/13 at 22:01:00
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Markovich wrote on 03/03/13 at 17:30:56:
1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.d4 c5 5.f4 cxd4! is not a French and is fine for Black.

How fine is Black after 4.f4 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 cxd4 and after 4.d4 c5 5.dxc5, inviting the Two Knights with e6 6.Nf3 ? I am asking this from the perspective of White.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #22 - 03/03/13 at 17:30:56
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1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 4.d4 c5 5.f4 cxd4! is not a French and is fine for Black.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #21 - 03/03/13 at 09:08:49
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Quote:
I saved the most interesting bit last. I checked with both SDO and my database. Neither after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nd7 4.f4 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 nor after 4.d4 c5 5.Nf3 I see a way to avoid the French that is at least as good. But hopefully you know more than me and are willing to share those interesting ideas? One thing I looked at is ...d4, but Ne4 always looks like a promising answer.


Well, it may depend a lot on opponent, time control and such but I've noticed over the years that in many of these "it just transposes" one may end up somewhere completely new by just giving the opponent the chance to avoid the transpo. Besides, even if there is a transposition there are often off-beat ways to handle known positions. For example, in the FR Steinitz there's the chance to play c5xd4 before Be3 arrives and then Nxd4 Bb4!? - I think Watson mentioned it in one of the PTFs but it's still terra incognita. Maybe for good reason? It's one of many unusual lines that I've considered looking into over the years but never really gotten around to it... And by playing c5xd4 even earlier thru the AL move order, maybe Black can get an improved version of this very unusual line? Or perhaps Black can let the Bc8 out by playing Nd7-b6/c5 in some lines?


2.Nc3 may not be objectively best, but it's a very human move. It comes with the question "So, besides the Alekhine, what other openings do you like?".
Players who are very booked up in a narrow repertoire would be an obvious prey for that approach.


Btw, when seeing this earlier post

Markovich wrote on 11/05/12 at 03:05:42:
As to the OP, 2...d6 makes no sense to me. If that is your thing, why not play 1...d6 and skip Alekine's altogether?


it suddenly struck me that 2...d6 may actually be the most Alekhinelike reply, since after a later e4-e5, Nf6-d7-b6 we may find ourselves back in the Alekhine again! Smiley

If memory serves me, Burgess in one of his books on the AL, mentions a game by Speelman where this happened, but funny enough Speelman didn't notice that he'd transposed to the AL and commented the game in depth in a magazine, giving his opinion on AL ML stuff in an article on the Pirc/Modern.  Smiley
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #20 - 03/02/13 at 15:38:40
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It has been observed here before this that 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nfd7 doesn't necessarily lead to a French.  Or at any rate, the particular lines of the French that White can "force" Black to accept are not considered very challenging for Black.

It someone just loves to play the Vienna or the Four Knights AND is confident against 2...d5, then 2.Nc3 makes sense.  But those 1.e4 things are peculiar preferences, and objectively, I'm not sure that 2...d5 is worse for Black.

The main objection to 2.Nc3 is that objectively, 2.e5 is a much better move.

I think that it's very easy to be a 1...e5 player if you know you know that White will play 2.Nc3.  Anyway, everyone should understand at least the bare bones of 1...e5 play, and not much more is needed against the systems white can reach after 2.Nc3 e5.

Bagirov calls 2...d5 the "Scandinavian Variation," by the way.

« Last Edit: 03/02/13 at 18:40:28 by Markovich »  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #19 - 03/02/13 at 12:29:36
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
And as White my stats after 2.Nc3 are excellent.  Smiley

Indeed, when I return to OTB chess I seriously contemplate 2.Nc3 as well.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
because the Vienna Game (2...e5) is not likely to give him what he wants.[/i]"

First of all I doubt if 2...d5 is likely to give Black what he/she wants. But when I played the Alekhine I had not much trouble playing for a win against the Vienna. Perhaps that says more about the level my opponents and me are playing, but still.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
Actually, for me, the whole point of 1...e5 would be to face the Spanish, I get bored with all the 4Ns, 3Ns and whathaveyous.

Well, yes, then 2...e5 doesn't make any sense. I left 1...e5 because of the Spanish.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
and imo allowing e5-e6 doesn't hurt Black's winning chances, rather the opposite, even if it may also increase White's...

Agreed. The one time I tried it I won in 15 moves or something, but I always have had huge doubts about a few lines.

TalJechin wrote on 03/02/13 at 11:56:41:
Besides, Black does have some interesting ideas with ...c5 next move without a preliminary e6

I saved the most interesting bit last. I checked with both SDO and my database. Neither after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e5 Nd7 4.f4 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d4 nor after 4.d4 c5 5.Nf3 I see a way to avoid the French that is at least as good. But hopefully you know more than me and are willing to share those interesting ideas? One thing I looked at is ...d4, but Ne4 always looks like a promising answer.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #18 - 03/02/13 at 11:56:41
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MNb wrote on 03/01/13 at 17:03:22:
TalJechin wrote on 03/01/13 at 10:37:21:
Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response,

According to your own logic - why not 1...e6 then? After all 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 probably will not lead to the Ruy Lopez.


Since I already play 1...e6 far too often. Smiley Besides, Black does have some interesting ideas with ...c5 next move without a preliminary e6 and imo allowing e5-e6 doesn't hurt Black's winning chances, rather the opposite, even if it may also increase White's...

Actually, for me, the whole point of 1...e5 would be to face the Spanish, I get bored with all the 4Ns, 3Ns and whathaveyous.

Soltis sums it up well, I think "An Alekhine specialist almost certainly likes positional imbalances and quick counterplay. He may have a problem with 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3!? because the Vienna Game (2...e5) is not likely to give him what he wants."

And as White my stats after 2.Nc3 are excellent.  Smiley
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #17 - 03/01/13 at 17:03:22
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TalJechin wrote on 03/01/13 at 10:37:21:
Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response,

According to your own logic - why not 1...e6 then? After all 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 probably will not lead to the Ruy Lopez.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #16 - 03/01/13 at 10:37:21
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Personally, I consider 2...d5 3.e5 Nfd7 a good response, while 2...e5 requires Black to be a 1...e5 player - and why play 1...Nf6 then? Even 2...d6 is more flexible as it doesn't have to become a Pirc.

Anyway, the reason I post is the following game with the supposedly bad Ne4, played in the final of Viking Cup recently. Hector surprisingly refrained from the approved 4.Nce2 against his World Champion opponent, and got into big trouble. He was saved by a fingerfehler the illegal 24...0-0 cost two extra minutes and a king move. Btw, the "!"s etc are JK's from a Facebook update.

  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #15 - 03/01/13 at 01:18:23
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Indeed, after 2...e5 3.Bc4 Black should just play 3...Nc6, and then if 4.d3 angling for f4, then 4...Bb4.  4.Nf3 is not a good line: 4...Nxe4, especially as players who meet the Alekhine Defence with 2.Nc3 probably won't be aware of the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit with 5.0-0 (which is probably White's best try in that line) and will just continue 5.Nxe4 d5.

For what it's worth, 2...e5 is what has primarily put me off meeting the Alekhine with 2.Nc3.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #14 - 03/01/13 at 00:10:33
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kylemeister wrote on 02/26/13 at 17:09:30:
one might suspect that people who play 2. Nc3 and are unaware of its transpositional possibilities, if they ever get as far as 2...e5 3. Bc4 Nxe4 4. Qh5 Nd6, would be likely to play 5. Qxe5+.


Playing the Alekhine is likely to provoke the Vienna if you want it. For a more difficult game for both players, it's probably better to enter potential Kings' Gambit theory with 3. .. Nc6 . White could just play 3 .. Nc6 4. Nf3 which is just a Two Knights. So Alekhine's Defence can be used as a move order trick for 1. ... e5 players.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #13 - 02/26/13 at 17:09:30
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Well as to "hardscrabble," one might suspect that people who play 2. Nc3 and are unaware of its transpositional possibilities, if they ever get as far as 2...e5 3. Bc4 Nxe4 4. Qh5 Nd6, would be likely to play 5. Qxe5+.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #12 - 02/26/13 at 16:08:10
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I'm hitting the anti-Alekhine 2.Nc3 quite a bit online. I've played around with a few responses, but it seems that generally the avoiders don't even realize they are being transposed into a Vienna or out-of-book side line. I used to play open lines quite a bit so boning a few hard scrabble (franco-drac) Vienna defenses smells like my best play for the point.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #11 - 11/05/12 at 03:05:42
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As to the OP, 2...d6 makes no sense to me. If that is your thing, why not play 1...d6 and skip Alekine's altogether?
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #10 - 11/05/12 at 00:21:53
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Objection, m'lud! I didn't say 2...d5 was bad exactly; I said that 2...d5 3 e5 Ne4 was bad. 3...Nfd7 is fine, and as I said White can't actually get a Steinitz French, or at least not the modern line with f4/Nf3/Be3. He can of course punt the e6 sacrifices, or he can play 4 d4 c5 5 Nf3 (which I would call a French Two Knights rather than a Steinitz, but perhaps I'm wrong about that), or 5 f4 cxd4 6 Nb5, but that's not quite the same - Black can go 6...Nc6 7 Nf3 Ndb8!?, for example.

Still, it's annoying that White can make you play another opening, I agree. Baburin always takes an impressively (ex-)Soviet approach about this, and has 2...e5 straight out there.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #9 - 11/04/12 at 16:22:58
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kylemeister wrote on 11/02/12 at 14:38:51:
Eh?  4. d5 is a sort of (Franco-) Benoni which has been considered slightly better for White (of note is that Black needs to play 4...d6 rather than 4...ed).  4. dc seems promising as well ...

In both cases the knight is already on c3 which makes it slightly different and imo a little more favourable for black than the analogous lines. Personally I dont trust dxc5 as Bxc5 immediately challenges f7 (with Qb6 for example)

Still 2..e5 is imo the best answer indeed.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #8 - 11/03/12 at 02:06:36
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Well. There is no doubt that 2...e5 is the best move. How could Black be unhappy with an open game and neither a Spanish nor even an Italian? But there are often good practical reasons to prefer 2...d5, so this is the move I often play.

Lately I've been investigating 3.e5 Ne4 4.Nce2 f6 with a view toward experimenting with it.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #7 - 11/02/12 at 14:38:51
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Eh?  4. d5 is a sort of (Franco-) Benoni which has been considered slightly better for White (of note is that Black needs to play 4...d6 rather than 4...ed).  4. dc seems promising as well ...
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #6 - 11/02/12 at 13:26:49
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IsaVulpes wrote on 10/31/12 at 17:36:23:
Now I found an Andrew-Martin-Videosample on 2. ..e6. The positions arising after (the by him so called 'critical test') 3.e5 look like something I can dabble around with,
but 3.d4 doesn't look all too pleasing; transposing into a classical french is -again- something I'm not too fond of, and the 'natural' 

After 3.d4 there is also 3..c5. After 4.dxc5 you have a sicilian type position and after 4.d5 a Pirc.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #5 - 11/01/12 at 15:46:04
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I think it's really matter of taste. If you like the positions
you get after 2...d5 you should play it, if you don't like it you
should go for 2...e5. I think you can go
for unbalanced position with this move.
But after 2...e6 3.d4 you have to be prepared
for the main line french, which is much
bigger then 2...e5 or 2...d5.
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #4 - 11/01/12 at 13:44:50
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This has been discussed before. Most notably in this thread...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299427560/

and see also my comment here...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1337337060/6#6
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #3 - 11/01/12 at 08:00:11
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Playing 1...Nf6 is having the wish to unbalance the position. Therefore after 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 - 2...d5 is the logical choice. You are still willing to unbalance (= creating winning chances out of the opening). If you play 2...e5 then you are out of your territory.

Continuing with 2...d5

3.ed5 is nothing to be afraid of - just play normal moves

3.e5 Nfd7 is more interesting and can either transpose to a Steinitz French (hmm - seems like we cannot avoid this and 2...e6!? is not a bad choice either!) or White may go for the gambit line 4.e6!? - but I think this also gives Black reasonable chances and he should be happy to see that move!

3.d4?! is the real reason to play 2...d5 (instead of 2...e6) - White transposes to the BDG and Black goes 3...Ne4! which should be at least equal for him, but probably already better (ok I know BDG players think differently).
  
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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #2 - 11/01/12 at 07:59:06
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I play 2...d5.

3.e5 Ne4 4.Nce2 Nc5 5.d4 Ne6 is one weird line I've played a few times with not too bad results. (g6 and Ng7 is an idea!)

I've played 2...Nc6 in one game. I had a decent game vs a 2200 player.
  

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Re: Alekhine 2.Nc3
Reply #1 - 11/01/12 at 06:13:41
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If you like to defend the position after 2...d5 then go for it. But I don't like it so I play 2...e5. Yes, it transposes to the open games, but white is left only with the vienna, four knights and the center game, so you don't have to learn to much.
  
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Alekhine 2.Nc3
10/31/12 at 17:36:23
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G'Day,

Just wondering, what do you play against this?
Obviously 2. ..e5 is a strong solution, but if I wanted to have an open game on the board, I'd be playing 1. ..e5  Cheesy

The 2. ..d5 lines not only don't look like something I want to play, but Hector's (amongst others) convincing results seem to put them into question altogether.

Currently I'm playing 2. ..d6 as I was originally a Pirc player anyways and this just transposes, but this runs into the same issue as ..e5 -
even worsely so, as White retains all options, while ..e5 at least got a good shot at annoying Ruy/Giucco/Scotch exponents.

Now I found an Andrew-Martin-Videosample on 2. ..e6. The positions arising after (the by him so called 'critical test') 3.e5 look like something I can dabble around with,
but 3.d4 doesn't look all too pleasing; transposing into a classical french is -again- something I'm not too fond of, and the 'natural' 

doesn't look like something I want to indulge in OTB either. Am I missing something (I sure hope so!), or is 2...e6 hardly playable unless one is happy with transposing to a french?

Also, is there any material on 1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 somewhere? Cox' SO-Book gives "I recommend 2..e5 (along with some analysis on 2...d5, but concludes it's ..unfavourable)",
Taylor (in A.Alert) not only recommends e5, but also gives some games on it (and neglects ..d5 as bad altogether).

So.. what do you do? Play 2...e5, happy to have avoided the most critical lines? Is there some merit in 2...e6 3.d4 which I'm missing (or maybe my assessment of the arising positions is simply false)?
Or do you go for 2...d5 against all odds?  Undecided I'm fairly at a loss what to play here - learning an entirely different opening (or even 4 in the case of ..e5) just to battle an offbeat try seems to be.. uneconomical.

Thanks in advance!
  
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