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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern (Read 9648 times)
Marcellus
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #18 - 04/25/15 at 05:02:55
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exigentsky wrote on 11/17/12 at 01:05:45:
What about 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 a6 if I intend to play a6 systems vs the Dragon setup or Austrian attack?  Are there any theoretical problems with this move order?


This move order seems to work well against a standard Austrian Attack after 4. f4 d5. I, too, am wondering if there's any reason not to play this way, since I'm willing to play 3...c5 after 3. c4.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #17 - 11/21/12 at 15:14:38
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Not to mention 4...e5 and assorted others.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #16 - 11/21/12 at 13:14:01
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Without Nf6 it's not a KID. Black can play the Averbakh system. Included in all books on the Modern.

1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 d6 4.Nc3 Nc6 (or 4...Nd7) 5.d5 Nd4 (or 5.Be3 e5 6.d5 Nce7).
  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #15 - 11/21/12 at 12:18:41
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TN wrote on 11/15/12 at 13:49:48:
If you meet 1.e4 with the Pirc then it doesn't matter whether you play 1...d6 or 1...g6 as after 1.d4 g6 2.e4 you can play 2...d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 to transpose to a Pirc, unless White plays 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3/3...Nf6 4.Bd3 which may be a slightly improved Pirc/Modern for White (after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.f4 the move 3...c5 is a strong reply).

Just want to add that there is 3.c4, and instead of the Pirc it's now the King's Indian that is in play. If you want to play the Pirc but not the King's Indian, you need a move order that prevents c4.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #14 - 11/21/12 at 12:10:36
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 11/21/12 at 01:45:54:
exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


If you start with d6 it's called a Pirc and if you start with g6 it's a Modern, the two are different openings. Most of the time they transpose, and for a very long time were under the same heading in MCO.

There are advantages and disadvantages with both openings, including surprise value, that's why people don't always use one or the other. This is fairly common in chess openings...
 


Well, not really.
More characterised by when the KN comes out.
Held back for flexibility: Modern.
d6 then Nf6 straight up, Pirc.
One can play the Modern sometimes via 1 d4 d6 2 e4 g6 for example and hold back the left horse. As TN already said.
It's deja vu again.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #13 - 11/21/12 at 01:45:54
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exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


If you start with d6 it's called a Pirc and if you start with g6 it's a Modern, the two are different openings. Most of the time they transpose, and for a very long time were under the same heading in MCO.

There are advantages and disadvantages with both openings, including surprise value, that's why people don't always use one or the other. This is fairly common in chess openings...
  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #12 - 11/17/12 at 01:05:45
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What about 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 a6 if I intend to play a6 systems vs the Dragon setup or Austrian attack?  Are there any theoretical problems with this move order?
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #11 - 11/15/12 at 21:47:16
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If White plays 1.e4, I see no difference at all, assuming you want to end up with ...d6 and ...g6 anyway. You can even hope for small mistakes like 1.e4 d6 2.f4?! d5.

If White plays 1.d4, there is perhaps a 0.0001 difference in favour of 1...d6 rather than 1...g6:
- against 1.d4 g6, White can try to play an improved Pirc without e4, with straightforward Nc3-Be3-Qd2-000. He can also launch a quick h4-h5. However, such plans require great versatility from a d4 player, and you shouldn't face them often.
- for White, 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 can be more unpleasant  than 1.d4 g6 2.c4 d6.

If White plays 1.c4, there is no risk of an accelerated pirc and you can play what you want. If you were a Grunfeld player, White could smell a rat  after 1.c4 g6 and play 2.e4, after which you reply 2...e5 and everybody is zugzwanged.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #10 - 11/15/12 at 17:16:22
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Lakwadala often recommends an early d5 against rare white setups, so there are some lines you lose.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #9 - 11/15/12 at 16:46:52
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Alias wrote on 11/15/12 at 14:47:26:


March 2013? I want it NOW!

Interesting title as it alludes to my own thoughts, i.e. that the perfection lies in combining both the Pirc and Modern, rather than playing excluisively one of them, transposing as appropriate.
« Last Edit: 11/15/12 at 19:33:13 by JEH »  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #8 - 11/15/12 at 14:47:26
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JEH
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #7 - 11/15/12 at 14:19:34
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TN wrote on 11/15/12 at 13:49:48:
If you meet 1.e4 with the Pirc then it doesn't matter whether you play 1...d6 or 1...g6


Some player repertoires I look at,  I see "Pirc" players opening with 1. ...g6, with the intention to transpose into a Pirc against most systems, and by that I mean playing eventually Nf6, which has a necessary precursor of d6, but retaining the option to keep the King's Knight back in base modern style against something like Be3.

Black could also go d6 and g6 on moves 1 and 2 in either order. The are a number of slippery move order options that could be used to try and divert White from a particular player's favourite line.



  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #6 - 11/15/12 at 13:49:48
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exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
1. ...g6 tells White I'm fianchettoing no matter what right from the first move. 1. ...d6 appears more flexible because it keeps the possibility of 1. d4 d6 2. c4 e5 as well as the Philidor, Old Indian, Czech and other offbeat variations. I'm inclined to play the Modern after 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 g6 but I'd like to use the move order that gives me the most options. In my mind, having more options reflects soundness or at least solidity.

From my survey of the Modern, it seems d6 is played nearly universally at some point and the variations that try to avoid it aren't very popular. Thus, can d6 be considered a recent move order finesse? And if it's not an improvement on 1. ...g6, what do you lose by playing it if you employ the Modern after 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 or 1. e4 d6 2. d4? Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


If you're going to play a Modern with an early ...d6 then you may as well start with 1...d6, but if you want to play a line of the Modern without a quick ...d6 then 1...g6 would be better unless you wish to play independent 1...d6 lines such as 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 or 2.Nf3 Bg4. The main thing that put me off 1...d6 and 1...g6 was 2.e4, where I tried a lot of different lines but didn't find anything I was completely happy with.

If you meet 1.e4 with the Pirc then it doesn't matter whether you play 1...d6 or 1...g6 as after 1.d4 g6 2.e4 you can play 2...d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 to transpose to a Pirc, unless White plays 3.f4 Bg7 4.Nf3/3...Nf6 4.Bd3 which may be a slightly improved Pirc/Modern for White (after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.f4 the move 3...c5 is a strong reply).
  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #5 - 11/15/12 at 13:44:21
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both 1...d6 and 1...g6 have their pluses and minuses. If you're ready for playing pirc or modern i believe there's no problem with reveal you oponent that  Bg7 is coming. Anyway move order issues are important. For instance, an anti KID line wich is btw quite interesting:
1.d4 d6 2.Cf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.00
(still is not clear if we will play a pirc/modern defence or a king's indian.) 5...00 6. Re1!? (also 6.a4 is interesting). If black plays 6...Nbd7, then e4 is a rare pirc fianchetto where black's knigth is not best placed in d7 (true, white's belongs to f3). With your pawn still in d7 6.Te1 can be answered with d5 in one tempo.

The "acelerated" Gurgenidze: Comparing 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 d5!? 5.e5 with 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 3.Nc3 c6!? (a move order favoured sometimes by german GM Hickl) 4.f4 d5 5.e5, black has won a tempo rather than lost, because his bishop is better placed in the f8-a3 diagonal than g7, where doesn't do anything and often has to be relocated.

One more with the Gurgenidze: 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3!? This move has been recently advocated in a recent yearbook survey by Naroditsky; If black doesn't want to enter in this sub-line of the Gurgenidze can transpose to pirc with 4...d6 and next Nf6 but then has to take into account that once the bishop is in g7 a quick Be3-h6 gains force in that pirc variation. Of course it's a playable option but it has to fit in your repertoire. (Sometimes black prefers play with his bishop still in f8 for a while) When designing your move orders you'll always have to figure what you're gaining and what your losing with your choices...there's not a magical solution  Undecided
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #4 - 11/15/12 at 12:37:09
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I could also mention the Gurgenidze system e.g. see here http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1105796228

but ironically, in its accellerated version, it uses d6  Huh
  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #3 - 11/15/12 at 11:24:48
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I would think 1...d6 has a lot going for it (especially the 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5 option you mentioned) but if you want to include the quite possibly not complete sound options of the Sniper, Dzindi and 1.d4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.e4 Nc6, then of course you'd have to start with 1...g6.  Also already mentioned is the possibility of ...d5 in one go, another variation where this sometimes this occurs is 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nc3 a6 but not often.
  
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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #2 - 11/15/12 at 10:41:34
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exigentsky wrote on 11/15/12 at 00:49:46:
Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?


I have played both, but mostly play 1. ...d6 to control which KID variations I allow White to have.

The disadvantage is not being able to play d5 in one move. You are pretty much commited to systems with d6, as generally you don't want to spend another tempo on it, although that's not entirely ruled out.

I can't think of many, if any,  lines where this is a big problem. What I might like to have this option for is is White goes for a anti-Sicilian like set up with d3 and Bc4 or f4, in expectation of c5.

Also if White goes 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. f4, I might want to go d5 here, rather than d6.

Essentially, with the Modern, you are playing two waiting moves trying to gain as much flexibility as possible to response to the set up White has telegraphed from their first 3 moves.

  

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Re: 1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
Reply #1 - 11/15/12 at 10:20:07
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There may be some other better reasons, but one I can think of is when the Black player wants to use 1. e4 g6 as a try to avoid various anti-Sicilians. Then if White enters the Sicilian (that's a big 'if'!) there are ways to strive for an Acc. Dragon set-up while avoiding the Maroczy Bind. If you manage all this you are king, since the Yugoslav attack is now difficult as Black has kept the option of d7-d5 in one go.

For example: 1. e4 g6 2. Nf3 c5 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Bc4 O-O 8. Bb3 Qa5 9. f3 d5.

But now I posted this continuation, the whole idea seems rather far fetched to me!  Grin
  

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1. ...d6 vs 1. ...g6 Modern
11/15/12 at 00:49:46
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1. ...g6 tells White I'm fianchettoing no matter what right from the first move. 1. ...d6 appears more flexible because it keeps the possibility of 1. d4 d6 2. c4 e5 as well as the Philidor, Old Indian, Czech and other offbeat variations. I'm inclined to play the Modern after 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 g6 but I'd like to use the move order that gives me the most options. In my mind, having more options reflects soundness or at least solidity.

From my survey of the Modern, it seems d6 is played nearly universally at some point and the variations that try to avoid it aren't very popular. Thus, can d6 be considered a recent move order finesse? And if it's not an improvement on 1. ...g6, what do you lose by playing it if you employ the Modern after 1. d4 d6 2. Nf3 or 1. e4 d6 2. d4? Are there any disadvantages to starting with d6 to enter a Modern and if not, why isn't everyone starting with d6?
  
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