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Normal Topic C10: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox? (Read 4351 times)
RdC
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Re: C10: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #9 - 02/26/13 at 15:48:45
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JonathanB wrote on 02/26/13 at 13:11:05:
Interesting - although it does raise another confusing (for me) question ... Knox writers normally say not to open up the centre because Black's given up the bishop pair.  Sometimes, like your suggestion here, Black does so anyway.


It does seem one of those Grandmaster mysteries. Looking at a number of games, you get the impression that sometimes White will waste the tempo with Qe2 before provoking Bxf3. In other games, White plays c4 and Black just goes in for the usual Caro style blockade, regardless of the extra tempo against the Qe2 line. Perhaps a player of Qe2 will annotate one day why they prefer it to c4. It's a variation where a number of the players with either colour are stronger than the authors who have written about it.
  
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Re: C10: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #8 - 02/26/13 at 13:11:05
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Thanks for the detailed reply.

So one answer to my question is 9 Qe2 rather than 9 c4 because after the latter Black needn't go for the standard Knox set-up with ... c6 and instead attack the centre with ... c5.

Interesting - although it does raise another confusing (for me) question ... Knox writers normally say not to open up the centre because Black's given up the bishop pair.  Sometimes, like your suggestion here, Black does so anyway.
  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #7 - 02/25/13 at 22:26:51
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Hi JonathanB.
Yes...sorry...my variations were for 9.Re1 oo inserted.
Sometimes i wander analyzing other sub-variations (mainly transpositions) and finish loosing
memory about the actual position.

A) 9.Re1 oo leads to position assessed in my previous post

B) 9.b3 oo (of course Black is playing plan for Re8 and a later e5)

B1) 10.c4 Re8 (the immediate 10..Bxf3 leads to c7-c6 or c7-c5 pawn move where Black has no real clear cut counterplay) 11.Bb2 b6 12.Qe2 Bxf3! (despite lot of of tempo with b6,Black engineers the wished trade of one pair of minor pieces) 11.Qxf3 c5= Kapengut-Holmov,URSS 1978 (Psakhis)

B2) 10.Bb2 b5!? Bologan's idea...I suppose for a prophylaxis move vs c4 and an idea of controling c3 with a later b4

Alternatives seem pointless because they don't hinder c4:

10...a5 is one plan from game Adams-Dreev,Manille 1992 as given by McDonald&Harley book and Bologan/Gufeld

10...Re8 11.c4! (11.Ne5 Nxe5 12.dxe5 Qd5 the point when there is no c4 pawn) b6 (11..Bxf3 transposes to usual lines  Shirov-Chernin,Groningue 1993 (Gufeld)) 12.Ne5 Qe2 +=

10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 c6 12.Rfe1 Re8 (Bb4 is not available here because of Re2/Re3 and a later a3 with a total control of the e file for White)

C) 9.Qe2 Bxf3 (9....oo 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.dxe5 Qd5 (11..Nd7 12.Qh5!) 12.f4 Nd7 13.c3) 10.Qxf3 c6 Karjakin-Gelfand,Odessa 2008 (chesspublishing, update janvier 2008) 11.Re1 oo 12.c3 Re8 13.Bf4 +=

D) 9.c4 Bxf3! (9...oo 10.Bf4! (10.Re1 Bb4; 10.b3 Re8 11.Bb2 b6 12.Ne5 Bb7 and 12.Qe2 Bxf3 transposes to Kapengut-Holmov,URSS 1978; 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Qh5!? g6 13.Qe2 (13.Qh6 with the idea Nh5:  Black has the defence Re8 with the idea Bf8) Nxe5! =) +=) 10.Qxf3 c5 (vs 10...c6, White uses plan with b3/Bb2/Re1) 11.Be3 Qb6= White is busy to defend his d4 pawn.

E) 9.c3 (maybe the sign Black can wait and try a slow developement with b6) oo 10.Re1 b6 see my previous post (where I can add 11.Qe2 Bb7 12.Ng5 +/-) or 10...Bxf3 11.Qxf3 c6 12.Bf4 Re8 Volokitin-Nakamura,Lausanne 2005 (Eingorn) 13.Rad1 Nf8 14.a3 Nd5 (Dom) instead of 14..Ng6 Leko-Seirawan,Istambul 2000 (Inf 80)
  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #6 - 02/24/13 at 12:38:54
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Thanks for this Dom, but perhaps you have the wrong position?  It looks like you've inserted 9 Re1 0-0 and then you're considering various alternatives at move 10.  I'm asking why people would play Qe2 at move nine.

e.g. you suggest ... Bb4 as an answer to c2-c4.  That makes sense to me at move ten with the rook on e1, but doesn't strike me as hugely plausible at move nine.
  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #5 - 02/24/13 at 12:22:20
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JonathanB wrote on 02/23/13 at 17:53:52:
I had a question, but I think I may have just answered it myself.  I'll just leave the game up with the observation that the tempo loss has always struck me as a little curious.


I guess that the immediate positional win (bishop pair) by 10.Qe2  Bxf3 11.Qxf3 is more valuable than other choices.

A) 10.Qe2 Bxf3!?  (10..b6 the natural way of developping the queenside, if you except 10..Re8 playing for e6-e5 pawn advance - 11.Ba6 Rb8 12.c4 Bb7 13.Bxb7 Rxb7 14.Ne5 Karpov-Stojanovic,Valjevo  2007) 11.Qxf3 c5 12.dxc5 Nxc5 13.Be2 a5 14.c3 Qb6 Tsehkovsky-Anastasian,Moscou 1989 (Psakhis)

B) 10.c3 (novelty from game Sokolov-Suba,Anvers 1996 (Inf 67)) Bxf5 (10...b6!?=) 11.Qxf3 c4 12.Bf4 Re8 (Volokitin-Nakamura,Lausanne 2005 (Eingorn)) 13.Rad1 Nf8 14.a3 Nd5 15.Be5 Ng6=

C) 10.c4 or 10.b3 Bb4

D) 10.Bd2 Bxf3 11.Qxf3 c5 12.Qxb7 cxd4 13.Ne4 Nd5 14.Qa6 Ne5 16.Bf1 Qc7 17.Rac1 Rab8 and Black has plenty of activity on the queenside

In the D) line, Black can delay the bas bishop trade playing for example: 10..Re8 11.Qe2 (11.c3 b6 12.Qe2 Bd6! 13.Ba6 e5=) Bxf3 12.Qxf3 c5 13.Qxb7 (13.Bc3 Nd5= (Suba's isea according to Psakhis)) cxd4 14.b4 Rb8 15.Qxa7 Bxb4 16.Bxb4 Rxb4=  Hellers-Hodgson,Reykjavik 1990 (Psakhis)



  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #4 - 02/24/13 at 01:03:33
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Ender wrote on 02/24/13 at 00:11:09:
which book?


The Starting Out book on 1. e4.  The Fort Knox (which "is a tough nut to crack," but in which "White certainly has the better of it") was handled in a note, citing a game Ivanchuk-Chernin.  This was before his book advocating the Fort Knox for Black.
  
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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #3 - 02/24/13 at 00:11:09
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kylemeister wrote on 02/23/13 at 18:08:46:
I notice that Neil McDonald gave 9. c4 0-0 10. b3 in the book in which he was writing for the white side ...


which book?
  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #2 - 02/23/13 at 18:14:08
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kylemeister wrote on 02/23/13 at 18:08:46:
I notice that Neil McDonald gave 9. c4 0-0 10. b3 in the book in which he was writing for the white side ...


That's interesting.  I didn't know that.

I'm thinking the answer to my question might be that ... Bb4 throws more of a spanner in the works than I'd assumed it would.

The other curiousity - why do so many of the top bods in this line (Gelfand, Nakamura, Karpov, Rustemov, Arkell) - play ... Bxf3 immediately after 9 Re1 when you don't need to.
  

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Re: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
Reply #1 - 02/23/13 at 18:08:46
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I notice that Neil McDonald gave 9. c4 0-0 10. b3 in the book in which he was writing for the white side ...
  
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C10: Why an early Qe2 from White in the Fort Knox?
02/23/13 at 17:53:52
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Today's Daily Telegraph chess column included the following game:-

[Event "Iceland"]
[Date "2013"]
[White "Jones"]
[Black "Isaksson"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bd7 5.Nf3 Bc6 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.0-0 Ngf6 8.Ng3 Be7 9.Qe2 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 c6 11.c4 0-0 12.b3 Re8 13.Bb2 Qa5 14.a3 Rad8 15.Rfe1 Qc7 16.Re2 Nf8 17.Rae1 Ng6 18.Re3 a5 19.Nh5 Nxh5 20.Qxh5 Bf6 21.Rh3 Nf8  22.Bxh7+ Nxh7 23.Qxh7+ Kf8 24.Bc3 Qb6 25.Qh5 g6 26.Bxa5 Qxd4 27.Bb4+ Be7 28.Qh6+ Qg7 29.Bxe7+ Rxe7 30.Qh8+ Qg8 31.Qf6 1-0

I had a question, but I think I may have just answered it myself.  I'll just leave the game up with the observation that the tempo loss has always struck me as a little curious.
« Last Edit: 02/26/13 at 05:58:34 by Smyslov_Fan »  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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