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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C50: Guiocco with early Be3 (Read 9864 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: C50: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #13 - 08/18/13 at 07:46:35
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Ametanoitos
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Re: C50: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #12 - 04/26/13 at 09:07:39
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Tiviakov -Korneev, Khanty Mansiysk 2005 and Harikrishna -Sargissian, Wijk aan Zee 2008 are two excellent games that show how to handle Black's position after White plays Be3 when ...Ba7 is played.

If Nc3 is played, i remeber the "old" Chessmaster cources by Waitzik where he said that when Be3 comes (and you have played ...a6) then simply let White take at c5 and then Black has the "dynamic structure" vs "the static one". If only my memory doesn't fail me of course!
  
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Re: C50: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #11 - 04/24/13 at 13:19:28
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JonathanB: Yeah, I have that game, and it's interesting that Be3 was tried so recently at a high level.  ...Bb6 is the tried and true antidote.  I don't think there is much doubt that Black equalizes there.  I guess my question is, is ...Bxe3 bad, and if so, why?  If it is, White can try something besides 5.Nc3 and if say ...a6, Be3 may be stronger, since ...Bb6 isn't there.

I have some doubt that the Wisdom of the Ages, which is "5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 +=", is correct, but in general I am just confused by the positions that arise then.  Or rather, the play takes so long to develop that analysis seems quite fruitless, and a fundamental understanding of themes and plans there, which I lack, rises in importance.  But as I said below, if you play over the lines given in the Handbuch that purport to demonstrate White's advantage, you discover that they aren't very convincing.  And everyone since then just gives a short line followed by +=, no real treatment.

Vass: Yes, that has to be considered, and it may even be a good idea.  My engine likes White after Bxc5 and Nbd2, but I have no reason to trust its judgment.  Answering Be3 with d6 seems to require ...a6 having been played first, since otherwise, Bxc5 followed by Bb5 might be strong.

ako: Yeah, there are plenty of other settings after an early ...a6, ...Ba7, Be3, where Black allows Bxa7 and then ...Rxa7, usually with ...Ra8 soon.  And Black is very often quite solid.  So your idea may be good, though I'm a little suspicious of wasting that much time with so few pieces out.
  

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Vass
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #10 - 04/24/13 at 10:12:43
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Markovich wrote on 04/24/13 at 01:16:38:
Vass wrote on 04/23/13 at 19:58:15:
6...d6 has to be considered, too..  Wink


What, you mean 5.c3 a6 6. Be3 d6?


Nope! What I mean is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.O-O a6 6.Be3 d6  Wink
  
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JonathanB
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Re: C50: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #9 - 04/24/13 at 07:31:22
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[Event "London Chess Classic"]
[Site "London ENG"]
[Date "2011.12.12"]
[EventDate "2011.12.03"]
[Round "9"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "Nigel Short"]
[Black "Magnus Carlsen"]
[ECO "C50"]
[WhiteElo "2698"]
[BlackElo "2826"]
[PlyCount "153"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. d3 d6 6. Be3 Bb6
7. Bb3 Be6 8. O-O O-O 9. h3 Re8 10. Bxb6 axb6 11. Ne2 h6
12. Ng3 d5 13. c3 b5 14. Re1 d4 15. Qc2 dxc3 16. bxc3 Qd7
17. Rad1 Na5 18. d4 exd4 19. cxd4 Nxb3 20. axb3 c6 21. d5 cxd5
22. e5 Nh7 23. Nd4 f6 24. Qd3 fxe5 25. Nxe6 Qxe6 26. Qxd5 Nf6
27. Qxb5 Ra6 28. Qxb7 Rb6 29. Qc7 Rxb3 30. Rd6 Qf7 31. Qc5 e4
32. Rc6 Rd3 33. Rc8 Rxc8 34. Qxc8+ Kh7 35. Qf5+ Qg6 36. Qxg6+
Kxg6 37. Nxe4 Nxe4 38. Rxe4 Rd2 39. Re5 Kf6 40. Rh5 Kg6 41. g4
Ra2 42. Kg2 Kh7 43. Rf5 Ra3 44. f3 Kg8 45. Kg3 Ra1 46. Rc5 Ra4
47. h4 Kf7 48. Rc7+ Kg8 49. g5 hxg5 50. hxg5 g6 51. Re7 Kf8
52. Re4 Ra5 53. Kg4 Kf7 54. Rb4 Kg7 55. Rb7+ Kg8 56. Rb3 Kf7
57. f4 Ra4 58. Kf3 Kg7 59. Rb7+ Kf8 60. Rd7 Rb4 61. Ke3 Ra4
62. Rd4 Ra7 63. Rd6 Kg7 64. Ke4 Re7+ 65. Kd5 Rf7 66. Ke5 Rf5+
67. Ke4 Rf7 68. Rc6 Re7+ 69. Kd5 Rf7 70. Rc4 Rf5+ 71. Ke4 Rf7
72. Ke5 Rf5+ 73. Ke6 Kg8 74. Rc8+ Kg7 75. Rc7+ Kg8 76. Rc8+
Kg7 77. Rc7+ 1/2-1/2
  

www.streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com  "I don't call you f**k face" - GM Nigel Short.
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Markovich
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #8 - 04/24/13 at 01:16:38
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Vass wrote on 04/23/13 at 19:58:15:
6...d6 has to be considered, too..  Wink


What, you mean 5.c3 a6 6. Be3 d6?
  

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Vass
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #7 - 04/23/13 at 19:58:15
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6...d6 has to be considered, too..  Wink
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #6 - 04/23/13 at 19:07:09
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Markovich wrote on 04/23/13 at 18:04:54:
wolfsblut wrote on 04/23/13 at 15:39:28:
I think that (after 5.0-0) 5...0-0 is better- black just waits and if now 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 than 7...d6 with perhaps following ...Be6 seems good enough for black.


Not according to the Handbuch.

Also I have looked some more at ...Bxe3 followed by an early ..d5 and decided that White's extra central pawn may be quite useful.  He intends d4.  This applies, for example, after 5.c3 a6 (a very normal move, endorsed here in the pdf file and also recommended by Marin) 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 d5 8.exd5.  Black should play 7...d6 instead, I opine, and the resulting position is not much explored.  So, given that ...d5 is not so hot, Be3 appears to be worth considering even if White's knight is not on c3 (preventing ...d5).


How about 6.-Ba7!? Wink
  

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Markovich
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #5 - 04/23/13 at 18:04:54
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wolfsblut wrote on 04/23/13 at 15:39:28:
I think that (after 5.0-0) 5...0-0 is better- black just waits and if now 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 than 7...d6 with perhaps following ...Be6 seems good enough for black.


Not according to the Handbuch.

Also I have looked some more at ...Bxe3 followed by an early ..d5 and decided that White's extra central pawn may be quite useful.  He intends d4.  This applies, for example, after 5.c3 a6 (a very normal move, endorsed here in the pdf file and also recommended by Marin) 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 d5 8.exd5.  Black should play 7...d6 instead, I opine, and the resulting position is not much explored.  So, given that ...d5 is not so hot, Be3 appears to be worth considering even if White's knight is not on c3 (preventing ...d5).
  

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Markovich
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #4 - 04/23/13 at 17:58:22
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Yes, ...Bxe3 is also cited by Keres as += in Theorie der Schacheroffnung.  But I think all that merely repeats the judgment of the Handbuch, since the line really haven't been played that much since 1905 or so.

Saltaev - Bosman, Netherlands 2011:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4† Bc5† 4.d3† Nf6 5.O-O a6 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 O-O 8.Nc3 d6 9.Qe1† Ne7 10.Nh4 Nd7 11.Qg3 b5 12.Bb3 Nc5 13.Nf5 Bxf5 14.exf5 Kh8 15.f6 gxf6 16.Rxf6 Nxb3 17.axb3 Ng8 18.Rf5 Ne7 19.Rf6 Ng8 20.Rf3 c6 21.Raf1 f6 22.Ne4 Ra7 23.Qh3 d5 24.Ng3 Qd7 25.Qh4 Qe6 26.Nf5 Raf7 27.b4 Ra7 28.Rg3 Raf7 29.Qg4 Qd7 30.h4 h6 and 1-0 on move 36.

However, I am not really sure why Black is worse if he plays 9...Na5 instead of 9...Ne7, even with the tempo wasted on ...a6.  I would like to hear someone elses opinion.
  

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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #3 - 04/23/13 at 16:04:12
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Markovich wrote on 04/23/13 at 15:38:12:
A related question is does White actually have any advantage after 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Bxe3?.  I don't find the lines given in the Handbuch all that persuasive.  For example, Blackburne-Chigorin, Vienna 1898 was apparently won by White, but to me, Black looked perfectly fine well into the middle game.


Speaking of old stuff, I notice that these were cited by Fine as += :

Tchigorin and Seibodt-Levin and Schiffers, St. Petersburg 1900
Salwe-Schlechter, Carlsbad 1907
Lasker-Steinitz, match 1896
  
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wolfsblut
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #2 - 04/23/13 at 15:39:28
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I think that (after 5.0-0) 5...0-0 is better- black just waits and if now 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 than 7...d6 with perhaps following ...Be6 seems good enough for black.
  
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Re: Guiocco with early Be3
Reply #1 - 04/23/13 at 15:38:12
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A related question is does White actually have any advantage after 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Bxe3?.  I don't find the lines given in the Handbuch all that persuasive.  For example, Blackburne-Chigorin, Vienna 1898 was apparently won by White, but to me, Black looked perfectly fine well into the middle game.
  

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C50: Guiocco with early Be3
04/23/13 at 12:20:17
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I would like to call the attention of those interested in the theory of the Guiocco to the importance of White's early Be3.  This idea was played a great deal in the 1880s and 90s.  Notwithstaning that it is generally ignored today, understanding it seems to me to be important for understanding the Guiocco itself, particularly when c3 is not played early.  A resourceful White after 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Bc5 may delay c2-c3 and see if Black gives him an opportunity to play Be3 on favorable terms.

For example, 5.0-0 and now if 5...a6, 6.Be3!? and it would seem that Black has little choice but to play 6...Bxe6.  Yet there fairly substantial theory going back to the last century (and presented in several columns of the 1916 edition of the Handbuch) that 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Bxe3 is unfavorable for Black (Black is supposed to play 6...Bb6).

It may be that Black is O.K. after 5.0-0 a6 6.Be3 Bxe3 7.fxe3 and now, before Nc3, 7...d5!?.  But I am not sure, since White will have one more central pawn and the semi-open f-file.

Relatedly, after 5.c3, 5...a6 is held to be good, but nobody bothers to explain how Black is supposed to play after 6.Be3 Bxe3 (what else?) 7.fxe3.  Also, fairly definitely after 5.Nc3, 5...a6?! is not good because of 6.Be3.

I guess what I am saying is that the sources of White's advantage after 5.Nc3 d6 7.Be3 Bxe3 8.fxe3 must be understood, because they inform Black's early move order, with the wrong choice possibly exploitable by White.

I would be curious to hear anyone's thoughts about this.
« Last Edit: 04/24/13 at 03:48:58 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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