Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 45989 times)
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2872
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #108 - 10/15/18 at 12:17:29
Post Tools
I haven't bought the DVD either. I haven't played the Classical Dutch much in the last few years, and 7...Ne4 was never my main line anyway. I used to play 7...a5, but now I think I would look at 7...Qe8 if I wanted to take it up again.

I can see myself buying the Pert DVD for all the sidelines, Flank openings, etc., but only if I feel OK with defending against the main line first, whether with 7...a5, 7...Qe8 or 7...Ne4 (or possibly 6...Ne4).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10260
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #107 - 10/15/18 at 08:04:24
Post Tools
No, I'm somewhat short of money these days. Probably later. But from the table of contents I noticed an annyoing problem: the Réti-English mixture.

1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nc3 and GM Pert recpmmends e5. Despite seemingly winning a tempo one must realize that Black is playing a Big Clamp with colours reversed. Compare the discussion in the Sicilian section. I don't think 5.e3 Be7 6.Nge2 O-O 7.O-O that attractive for Black. White will stifle all aggression with a well timed f2-f4.
1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O d67.b4 does extremely well for White. So 3...d6 (hoping for 4.g3 e5 and the Big Clamp suits Black better with the knight already on f3) 4.d4 e6 5.e3 Be7 6.Bd3 O-O is chapter 4.01 (section 20), assuming that Black plays 6...d6. The game Van den Berg-Burstein, Tel Aviv/Haifa 1958 shows how easily Black can be overrun - the aggression is all White's. I would not be surprised if GM Pert recommends 6...b6 iso 6...d6 but then Black has a move order problem.

GM Williams in his 2003 book circumvented this by playing e6 an Be7 anyway. Swpwnsinf on White's reaction Black may lose a tempo with either ...e5 or ...Bb4 or ...Bc5. I have gone two steps further: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 (2.Nf3 Nf6 and 3...e6  a la GM Williams) Nf6 3.g3 e5 and even 1.c4 e5 and 2...f5, which becomes a GPA with colours reversed.

PS: another problem might be 1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 d6 4.d4 e6 5.Bg2 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.b4 Qe8 8.Nc3, apparently from chapter 3.04 (section 18). Five minutes seems a bit short for this difficult line. After 1.d4 I'd avoid it by playing the Alekhine Variation 6...Ne4 (iso 6...d6) as in model game 2. That's not possible in GM Pert's repertoire if White starts with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 130
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #106 - 10/14/18 at 23:21:56
Post Tools
Anyone end up buying that Pert DVD yet and find out what it given in that line with 9. Ce1 ¿
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 130
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #105 - 10/05/18 at 05:24:48
Post Tools
After 9. Ce1 d5 10. Ae3, I searched Big Base 2017 and in the past years there is Martinsen-Dahl, Stavanger 2017 where Black played 10...Af6 11. Tc1 Af6 and later a ...b5?!?! but looks to me stragetically bad. Ended up losing.

Other 2017 game is Mihaljov-Stefansson, Stockholm 2017 (is the Classical Dutch popular in Scandinavia ¿  Grin) also 10...Cc6 11. Tc1 Af6 12. f3 and the question what to do about the centre. 12...dxc4 looks  Lips Sealed and 12...exf3 13. Cxf3 how to develop that queenside. Black opted to do 12...dxc4 and lost as well.

After thinking for a few minutes I did not know what to do and turned on the engine for a bit of inspiration if Black tries 12...exf3 13. Cxf3. It gave 13...a5 14. h4 Ta6 as the first line.  Shocked

In both games Black were higher rated so that definitely concerns me.

There is however the game Sbarra-Castaldo, Ivrea 2005 where Black did 12...exf3 13. Cxf3 Ce7 and Black did a slav-like set-up with ...c6 and they drew shortly after. Not much indication of what would be like if they played on.

I do not like the decision to sac pawn on d5 in Sumets-Brynell, Palma 2009 where after 13...Ad7 14. cxd5 exd5 15. Db3 De7. Maybe 13...Ce7 is better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2872
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #104 - 10/05/18 at 04:33:05
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/05/18 at 03:57:23:
If not 10. Ae3, what else would White play ¿ It would be logical to be covered, just my guess.

Willams has covered 9.Ne1 d5 10.f3?!, in The Killer Dutch book and probably also on his older DVD. But that's not threatening for Black.

P.S.: One curious thing about The Killer Dutch is Williams mentions he has 0/4 with 7...Qe8 and doesn't have much faith in it, but then the lines he actually gives all seem to end up fine for Black or unclear! So maybe 7...Qe8 is worth a serious look for Black.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 331
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #103 - 10/05/18 at 04:00:53
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/04/18 at 19:57:55:
I am thinking of this DVD for buy, would you recommend ¿ The other resource on Classical Dutch that I remember is the book by Williams.


Pert's DVDs are generally good (I have his Slav and Minor Openings ones) , so if you have an interest in the Classical Dutch, I'd probably recommend it.

You're right in that most of the material published about the Classical Dutch has been by Simon Williams. There is also the old Everyman book (by Pinski, was it?).



  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 130
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #102 - 10/05/18 at 03:57:23
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 10/05/18 at 03:21:06:
At least this new Pert DVD has a chapter "05: 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne1 - Video notation [13:12]"


So no one has the DVD yet ¿ I am wondering if I should buy it just to see what is in the 9. Ce1 line  Cheesy

If not 10. Ae3, what else would White play ¿ It would be logical to be covered, just my guess.

Classical Dutch, when compared with elite Ленинград or solid Stonewall is probably dodgier. But most White players do not prepare deeply against it so much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2872
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #101 - 10/05/18 at 03:21:06
Post Tools
At least this new Pert DVD has a chapter "05: 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne1 - Video notation [13:12]"

He should cover 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3! there, but I won't bet he does, as there seems to be almost a secret pact of authors and analysts ignoring this line. Even when I brought it up right here, the thread quickly swung back to focusing on the sharper 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3, which seems unnecessary when White has such a simple and strong alternative...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 859
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #100 - 10/04/18 at 21:23:01
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/04/18 at 13:49:25:
brabo wrote on 10/04/18 at 10:16:18:
I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

This cure is worse than the disease, I'm afraid.


1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.d4 Ne4 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Re1 Nc6 10.e4 wins a pawn more or less by force.

8...Nc6 9.Re1 Na5 doesn't look that ugly
Anyway it is not relevant for my games as I can't reach that position.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 130
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #99 - 10/04/18 at 19:57:55
Post Tools
I am thinking of this DVD for buy, would you recommend ¿ The other resource on Classical Dutch that I remember is the book by Williams.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10260
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #98 - 10/04/18 at 13:49:25
Post Tools
brabo wrote on 10/04/18 at 10:16:18:
I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

This cure is worse than the disease, I'm afraid.


1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.d4 Ne4 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Re1 Nc6 10.e4 wins a pawn more or less by force.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 859
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #97 - 10/04/18 at 10:16:18
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/04/18 at 09:21:29:
It looks like I need to purchase this DVD. It would be the first one as I have an instinctive aversion against this medium (books and internet articles have a higher information density). Hence it might take a while. Still thanks for the link.
Btw a remark of yours from several pages ago is partly incorrect. White can avoid the real Alekhine Variation (6...Ne4) with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, but not the delayed version (6...d6 and 7...Ne4). And the latter is the on one I'm interested in. Example:

1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.Nc3 d6 and neither 7.d3 Nc6 nor 7.b4 e5 is a bigger problem for Black than 6.d4 Ne4.

I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

Personally I am also not used watching DVDs about chess. I guess I am also old fashioned as I notice that the younger players prefer DVDs above books. I also have my doubts in how much content can be included in a DVD unless there are some pgn files attached which include additional analysis. However considering how easily this can be illegally copied, only few editors want to take such risks.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10260
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #96 - 10/04/18 at 09:21:29
Post Tools
It looks like I need to purchase this DVD. It would be the first one as I have an instinctive aversion against this medium (books and internet articles have a higher information density). Hence it might take a while. Still thanks for the link.
Btw a remark of yours from several pages ago is partly incorrect. White can avoid the real Alekhine Variation (6...Ne4) with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, but not the delayed version (6...d6 and 7...Ne4). And the latter is the on one I'm interested in. Example:

1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.Nc3 d6 and neither 7.d3 Nc6 nor 7.b4 e5 is a bigger problem for Black than 6.d4 Ne4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 859
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #95 - 10/04/18 at 08:12:26
Post Tools
Has anybody reviewed the new DVD from the English grandmaster Nicholas Pert: https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/pert_the_aggressive_classical_dutch?ref=R...?
How does it stand against the analysis provided here?
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10260
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #94 - 03/22/18 at 08:10:15
Post Tools
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 (perhaps I should take another look at the Blumenfeld Gambit) 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.O-O O-O 6.c4 Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 (9.Ne1) d5 10.f3 Nc6 11.e3 fxe3 12.Nxf3 b6 13.Bd2

Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/04/18 at 08:01:34:
It seems to me, however, that the earlier move 13...Bb7? is inaccurate. In some lines Black might want to play Bc8-a6. Thus it seems more urgent to play 13...a5 at once, to take White's threat b2-b4 out of the position. For example 14.cxd5 (14.Rf2 Bb7 followed by dxc4) 14...exd5 15.Qb3 Kh8 16.Rac1 Bb7, and now:
(a) 17.Nh4 Rxf1+ 18.Rxf1 Ba6 19.Rf5 Bc4 20.Qc2 g6 =.
(b) 17.Ne1 Rxf1+ 18.Kxf1 Nb8 19.Kg1 c6 20.e4 dxe4 21.Be3 a4, and again it's an open fight, about =.

I hope I haven't missed any follow up on this line. For now I'd like to point out that 14.Rac1 Ba6 15.cxd5 Bxf1 16.Qxf1 Qxd5 17.Qe2 Qd6 18.Ne1 Nb4 doesn't seem to give White much.
Instinctively I'd prefer 10...Nc6 to 10...Bf6. In my experience the Classical Dutch has one thing in common with the QGD: Black needs to answer the question what to do with his/her queenside or White will be better.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo