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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 53974 times)
Jupp53
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #123 - 01/16/19 at 20:19:14
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To be honest: If the notation isn't english or german I skip the post instead of reading it. It's not directed to me.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #122 - 12/29/18 at 12:47:25
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/29/18 at 06:06:30:
Stigma wrote on 12/29/18 at 00:21:40:
P. S.: Why do you use Spanish piece letters when writing in English?


Those are symbols for both Catalán, and Spanish too I guess. It is a kind of habit. This is what I see in all of my ChessBase files, so if I need to visualise, I use the same notation when writing. I can also do Norwegian too: 9. Se1 d5 10. Le3  Cheesy

I get that, but on a forum you're writing for others, not just for yourself. And on an English-language forum the one convention everyone can be assumed to be familiar with is the English one.

I usually understand what is meant when people use other piece letters, but it's distracting and unnecessary. So out of respect for the other users I always use the English letters myself, not my native Norwegian ones.
  

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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #121 - 12/29/18 at 08:42:38
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Stigma wrote on 12/29/18 at 00:29:20:
I used to play this line for Black, and there's an important nuance here in that Black can delay ...d6-d5 for some time and keep White guessing. Sometimes ...Be6 with pressure on a weakened c4 pawn/square, a ...c5 break or even a well-prepared ...b5 break is possible instead. So the comparison to the Gurgenidze system does not always hold.

Indeed, I noticed this too since I decided to play the GPA against the English some two years ago. There is yet another nuance: after 1.c4 f5 2.2.g3 e5 (iso Nf6) 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 (4.Bg2 Be7) e4 5.Ng5 Black has Be7 preventing from White reaching the ideal Gurgenidze setup for a while.
All this didn't exactly raise my enthusiams for this DVD in particular and DVD's in general. Of course this kind of superficiality in publications on opening theory has always been around, but at least the superficial ones were lots and lots cheaper 35 years ago.
Maybe I'll change my mind after I've actually watched the video, but that will take a while. It's not only the first one, but likely also the last one I bought.
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #120 - 12/29/18 at 06:06:30
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Stigma wrote on 12/29/18 at 00:21:40:
I'm not sure what you mean here. Several strong players have used 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 with success. One reason it hasn't trickled down to lower-rated players all that much may be it's ignored in all the theory works. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect the authors may be doing this on purpose: They don't want to draw attention to such a depressing line for Black and increase the risk of facing it themselves.


What I usually would want to do is cheque the correspondence database for what this line has there. Unfortunately I have no corr base and I am not paying 100,€ or however much the ChessBase one costs. They often play the best lines in correspondence, so I wonder how Black responds to this line there.

Even so, if many titled players have played I would have thought that someone would mention it in some article somewhere. Or some White repertoire book would choose 9. Ce1 for their White repertoire choice against Dutch. Anyways, the entire situation seems curious to me.

Stigma wrote on 12/29/18 at 00:21:40:
P. S.: Why do you use Spanish piece letters when writing in English?


Those are symbols for both Catalán, and Spanish too I guess. It is a kind of habit. This is what I see in all of my ChessBase files, so if I need to visualise, I use the same notation when writing. I can also do Norwegian too: 9. Se1 d5 10. Le3  Cheesy

There was a discussion on Quality Chess blog about using the unicode, but typing that constantly on a laptop must be some almighty pain in the arse.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #119 - 12/29/18 at 00:29:20
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MNb wrote on 12/23/18 at 10:19:56:
Finally I'm not that fond of 1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d4 Be7 6.Nf3 e4 7.Ng5 c6 8.O-O d5 (White will play 9.h4). This is a Gurgenidze System with colours reversed. The knight will go to f4. At first sight White has lost two tempi (but already one of them spend to White being White) with Ng1-f3-g5-h3. A second look teaches that White has managed to play c4 in one go (compare 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.e5 and Black will have to prepare c6-c5 later),  enabling to play Nc3 as well (in the Gurgenidze system this knight goes to d7). Also compare 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4 d5 5.e5 Bg7 6.Nc3 Nc6 and 7.f4 is hardly critical - still this is Pert's Anglo-Dutch line.

I used to play this line for Black, and there's an important nuance here in that Black can delay ...d6-d5 for some time and keep White guessing. Sometimes ...Be6 with pressure on a weakened c4 pawn/square, a ...c5 break or even a well-prepared ...b5 break is possible instead. So the comparison to the Gurgenidze system does not always hold. And even a reversed Gurgenidze usually isn't a disaster for Black (unless White is a Gurgenidze expert, perhaps). Here the differences between White's and Black's aims in the opening come into play.

For some reason I had good results with this setup (called the Lukin variation in some sources) even though I knew virtually no concrete theory on it. But there are some tricky move order issues to navigate before the line is actually reached.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #118 - 12/29/18 at 00:21:40
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/24/18 at 03:43:23:
Is there something that the titled players see that lower rated do not see about 9. Ce1 d5 10. Ae3 ¿ It does not seem to be that much played. Or is it one of those things that GMs just do not consider but non GMs just get baffled by...

I'm not sure what you mean here. Several strong players have used 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3 with success. One reason it hasn't trickled down to lower-rated players all that much may be it's ignored in all the theory works. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect the authors may be doing this on purpose: They don't want to draw attention to such a depressing line for Black and increase the risk of facing it themselves.

P. S.: Why do you use Spanish piece letters when writing in English?
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #117 - 12/24/18 at 03:43:23
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Is there something that the titled players see that lower rated do not see about 9. Ce1 d5 10. Ae3 ¿ It does not seem to be that much played. Or is it one of those things that GMs just do not consider but non GMs just get baffled by...
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #116 - 12/23/18 at 10:19:56
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Yesterday I received Pert's DVD (the first opening DVD I ever bought) and it kind of confirmes my prejudices after checking the database (thus far I've been too lazy to install the video). The database doesn't mention 10.f3 Nc6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 b6 13.Bd2 nor 10.Be3.
And it neglects 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3, which is important, as d6 4.d4 Be7 5.e3 leads Black out of the proposed repertoire (see Van den Berg-Burstein, Haifa-Tel Aviv 1958) and e6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O d6 allows the interesting 7.b4!?
Finally I'm not that fond of 1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nc3 e5 5.d4 Be7 6.Nf3 e4 7.Ng5 c6 8.O-O d5 (White will play 9.h4). This is a Gurgenidze System with colours reversed. The knight will go to f4. At first sight White has lost two tempi (but already one of them spend to White being White) with Ng1-f3-g5-h3. A second look teaches that White has managed to play c4 in one go (compare 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6 4.e5 and Black will have to prepare c6-c5 later),  enabling to play Nc3 as well (in the Gurgenidze system this knight goes to d7). Also compare 1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4 d5 5.e5 Bg7 6.Nc3 Nc6 and 7.f4 is hardly critical - still this is Pert's Anglo-Dutch line.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #115 - 11/15/18 at 08:23:36
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Why would White retreat Qc4? After 15.Ng2 Qd5 16.Bf4 (so there will be no ...e5) Bd7 17.Ne3 White controls the position. If Black exchanges queens the potential vulnerability of White's king is reduced.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #114 - 11/14/18 at 22:27:16
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/18 at 21:18:02:
12.Qc2 is an interesting finding. I thought Black would simply take on c4, but 12...Nxc4 13.Bxe4 dxe4 14.Qxc4 c6 looks playable for White. An interesting fight between White's better structure and Black's bishop pair. My first instinct is that Black should be OK; what do you think?



The computer seems to think that White is better but positionally I find this questionable. If Blacks can play e5 somehow by for example offer queen exchange with a ...Dd5 and develop the queenside with ...Ad7 and the other rook, then White could regret having a fianchetto structure with no fianchetto bitchop.

Any sort of ...Dd5, White retreats her queen, Black plays e5, only change for White advantage would be to use her lead in development. Otherwise I think that Black would be fine.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #113 - 11/14/18 at 11:14:33
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Stigma wrote on 11/13/18 at 21:18:02:
what do you think?

Both Ne1 and Bc8 are problem pieces, so I guess White should play 15.Ng2. As Black I'd wish to play Bc8-d7-e8-g6 (or h5) and that will take a lot of moves. So for the time being Black can't do much with those bishops. Black's doubled pawns are rather a long term problem, so as long as White manages to keep Black's queen's bishop passive he/she should be at least somewhat better.
I also think I need to purchase that Pert video.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #112 - 11/13/18 at 21:18:02
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MNb wrote on 10/25/18 at 06:41:11:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 21:42:23:
Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿

As for 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 I think Black as usual needs to find an answer to the question what to do with the queen's bishop. After 12.Qc2 b6?! 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qxc7 Ba6 15.Qxd8 Black has solved it - and got bigger problems in return.

10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 12.Qc2 is an interesting finding. I thought Black would simply take on c4, but 12...Nxc4 13.Bxe4 dxe4 14.Qxc4 c6 looks playable for White. An interesting fight between White's better structure and Black's bishop pair. My first instinct is that Black should be OK; what do you think?
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #111 - 11/13/18 at 21:11:41
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 21:42:23:
I bought me DVD for my birthday  Grin 

For what I see as a quick look, after 9. Ce1, it goes 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3 dxc4 11. fxe4, with 11. Ae3 Cc6 also analysed.

I just looking at the DVD now, so I can post back later when I look more deeply into how it is.

A quick observation: if Black wants to after 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3, it could transpose to any 10. Ae3 lines where White plays f3 right after.
[...]


So you're saying Pert doesn't actually mention anything except 10.f3 after 9.Ne1 d5 on the DVD?

I would definitely want to wait a few moves with f3 as White, that is the entire point. Will get back to you on the specific line you give soon.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #110 - 10/25/18 at 06:41:11
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 21:42:23:
Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿

What I think is that I would like to learn something about the quality. Does it contain interesting analysis? New ideas? Only somewhat less important: does it address transpositions like the one you mentioned?
Another quick question: according to one source the DVD lasts 6 hours; according to another 9. Which is it?
Thanks.

As for 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 I think Black as usual needs to find an answer to the question what to do with the queen's bishop. After 12.Qc2 b6?! 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qxc7 Ba6 15.Qxd8 Black has solved it - and got bigger problems in return.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #109 - 10/24/18 at 21:42:23
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I bought me DVD for my birthday  Grin 

For what I see as a quick look, after 9. Ce1, it goes 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3 dxc4 11. fxe4, with 11. Ae3 Cc6 also analysed.

I just looking at the DVD now, so I can post back later when I look more deeply into how it is.

A quick observation: if Black wants to after 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3, it could transpose to any 10. Ae3 lines where White plays f3 right after.

Regarding the line where White does not want go f3 so quick, e.g



I had this idea, to solidify the structure from White disintegrating the centre since f3 was delayed. Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿
  
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