Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 49071 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10281
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #115 - 11/15/18 at 08:23:36
Post Tools
Why would White retreat Qc4? After 15.Ng2 Qd5 16.Bf4 (so there will be no ...e5) Bd7 17.Ne3 White controls the position. If Black exchanges queens the potential vulnerability of White's king is reduced.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 148
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #114 - 11/14/18 at 22:27:16
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 11/13/18 at 21:18:02:
12.Qc2 is an interesting finding. I thought Black would simply take on c4, but 12...Nxc4 13.Bxe4 dxe4 14.Qxc4 c6 looks playable for White. An interesting fight between White's better structure and Black's bishop pair. My first instinct is that Black should be OK; what do you think?



The computer seems to think that White is better but positionally I find this questionable. If Blacks can play e5 somehow by for example offer queen exchange with a ...Dd5 and develop the queenside with ...Ad7 and the other rook, then White could regret having a fianchetto structure with no fianchetto bitchop.

Any sort of ...Dd5, White retreats her queen, Black plays e5, only change for White advantage would be to use her lead in development. Otherwise I think that Black would be fine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10281
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #113 - 11/14/18 at 11:14:33
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 11/13/18 at 21:18:02:
what do you think?

Both Ne1 and Bc8 are problem pieces, so I guess White should play 15.Ng2. As Black I'd wish to play Bc8-d7-e8-g6 (or h5) and that will take a lot of moves. So for the time being Black can't do much with those bishops. Black's doubled pawns are rather a long term problem, so as long as White manages to keep Black's queen's bishop passive he/she should be at least somewhat better.
I also think I need to purchase that Pert video.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2897
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #112 - 11/13/18 at 21:18:02
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/25/18 at 07:41:11:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 22:42:23:
Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿

As for 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 I think Black as usual needs to find an answer to the question what to do with the queen's bishop. After 12.Qc2 b6?! 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qxc7 Ba6 15.Qxd8 Black has solved it - and got bigger problems in return.

10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 12.Qc2 is an interesting finding. I thought Black would simply take on c4, but 12...Nxc4 13.Bxe4 dxe4 14.Qxc4 c6 looks playable for White. An interesting fight between White's better structure and Black's bishop pair. My first instinct is that Black should be OK; what do you think?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2897
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #111 - 11/13/18 at 21:11:41
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 22:42:23:
I bought me DVD for my birthday  Grin 

For what I see as a quick look, after 9. Ce1, it goes 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3 dxc4 11. fxe4, with 11. Ae3 Cc6 also analysed.

I just looking at the DVD now, so I can post back later when I look more deeply into how it is.

A quick observation: if Black wants to after 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3, it could transpose to any 10. Ae3 lines where White plays f3 right after.
[...]


So you're saying Pert doesn't actually mention anything except 10.f3 after 9.Ne1 d5 on the DVD?

I would definitely want to wait a few moves with f3 as White, that is the entire point. Will get back to you on the specific line you give soon.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10281
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #110 - 10/25/18 at 07:41:11
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/24/18 at 22:42:23:
Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿

What I think is that I would like to learn something about the quality. Does it contain interesting analysis? New ideas? Only somewhat less important: does it address transpositions like the one you mentioned?
Another quick question: according to one source the DVD lasts 6 hours; according to another 9. Which is it?
Thanks.

As for 10.Be3 Nc6 11.Rc1 Na5 I think Black as usual needs to find an answer to the question what to do with the queen's bishop. After 12.Qc2 b6?! 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qxc7 Ba6 15.Qxd8 Black has solved it - and got bigger problems in return.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 148
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #109 - 10/24/18 at 22:42:23
Post Tools
I bought me DVD for my birthday  Grin 

For what I see as a quick look, after 9. Ce1, it goes 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3 dxc4 11. fxe4, with 11. Ae3 Cc6 also analysed.

I just looking at the DVD now, so I can post back later when I look more deeply into how it is.

A quick observation: if Black wants to after 9. Ce1 d5 10. f3, it could transpose to any 10. Ae3 lines where White plays f3 right after.

Regarding the line where White does not want go f3 so quick, e.g



I had this idea, to solidify the structure from White disintegrating the centre since f3 was delayed. Idea of b3 weakens diagonal, maybe black can play ...b6. What you think ¿
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2897
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #108 - 10/15/18 at 12:17:29
Post Tools
I haven't bought the DVD either. I haven't played the Classical Dutch much in the last few years, and 7...Ne4 was never my main line anyway. I used to play 7...a5, but now I think I would look at 7...Qe8 if I wanted to take it up again.

I can see myself buying the Pert DVD for all the sidelines, Flank openings, etc., but only if I feel OK with defending against the main line first, whether with 7...a5, 7...Qe8 or 7...Ne4 (or possibly 6...Ne4).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10281
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #107 - 10/15/18 at 08:04:24
Post Tools
No, I'm somewhat short of money these days. Probably later. But from the table of contents I noticed an annyoing problem: the Réti-English mixture.

1.c4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d6 4.Nc3 and GM Pert recpmmends e5. Despite seemingly winning a tempo one must realize that Black is playing a Big Clamp with colours reversed. Compare the discussion in the Sicilian section. I don't think 5.e3 Be7 6.Nge2 O-O 7.O-O that attractive for Black. White will stifle all aggression with a well timed f2-f4.
1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O d67.b4 does extremely well for White. So 3...d6 (hoping for 4.g3 e5 and the Big Clamp suits Black better with the knight already on f3) 4.d4 e6 5.e3 Be7 6.Bd3 O-O is chapter 4.01 (section 20), assuming that Black plays 6...d6. The game Van den Berg-Burstein, Tel Aviv/Haifa 1958 shows how easily Black can be overrun - the aggression is all White's. I would not be surprised if GM Pert recommends 6...b6 iso 6...d6 but then Black has a move order problem.

GM Williams in his 2003 book circumvented this by playing e6 an Be7 anyway. Swpwnsinf on White's reaction Black may lose a tempo with either ...e5 or ...Bb4 or ...Bc5. I have gone two steps further: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 (2.Nf3 Nf6 and 3...e6  a la GM Williams) Nf6 3.g3 e5 and even 1.c4 e5 and 2...f5, which becomes a GPA with colours reversed.

PS: another problem might be 1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 d6 4.d4 e6 5.Bg2 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.b4 Qe8 8.Nc3, apparently from chapter 3.04 (section 18). Five minutes seems a bit short for this difficult line. After 1.d4 I'd avoid it by playing the Alekhine Variation 6...Ne4 (iso 6...d6) as in model game 2. That's not possible in GM Pert's repertoire if White starts with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 148
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #106 - 10/14/18 at 23:21:56
Post Tools
Anyone end up buying that Pert DVD yet and find out what it given in that line with 9. Ce1 ¿
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 148
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #105 - 10/05/18 at 05:24:48
Post Tools
After 9. Ce1 d5 10. Ae3, I searched Big Base 2017 and in the past years there is Martinsen-Dahl, Stavanger 2017 where Black played 10...Af6 11. Tc1 Af6 and later a ...b5?!?! but looks to me stragetically bad. Ended up losing.

Other 2017 game is Mihaljov-Stefansson, Stockholm 2017 (is the Classical Dutch popular in Scandinavia ¿  Grin) also 10...Cc6 11. Tc1 Af6 12. f3 and the question what to do about the centre. 12...dxc4 looks  Lips Sealed and 12...exf3 13. Cxf3 how to develop that queenside. Black opted to do 12...dxc4 and lost as well.

After thinking for a few minutes I did not know what to do and turned on the engine for a bit of inspiration if Black tries 12...exf3 13. Cxf3. It gave 13...a5 14. h4 Ta6 as the first line.  Shocked

In both games Black were higher rated so that definitely concerns me.

There is however the game Sbarra-Castaldo, Ivrea 2005 where Black did 12...exf3 13. Cxf3 Ce7 and Black did a slav-like set-up with ...c6 and they drew shortly after. Not much indication of what would be like if they played on.

I do not like the decision to sac pawn on d5 in Sumets-Brynell, Palma 2009 where after 13...Ad7 14. cxd5 exd5 15. Db3 De7. Maybe 13...Ce7 is better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2897
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #104 - 10/05/18 at 04:33:05
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/05/18 at 03:57:23:
If not 10. Ae3, what else would White play ¿ It would be logical to be covered, just my guess.

Willams has covered 9.Ne1 d5 10.f3?!, in The Killer Dutch book and probably also on his older DVD. But that's not threatening for Black.

P.S.: One curious thing about The Killer Dutch is Williams mentions he has 0/4 with 7...Qe8 and doesn't have much faith in it, but then the lines he actually gives all seem to end up fine for Black or unclear! So maybe 7...Qe8 is worth a serious look for Black.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 349
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #103 - 10/05/18 at 04:00:53
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 10/04/18 at 19:57:55:
I am thinking of this DVD for buy, would you recommend ¿ The other resource on Classical Dutch that I remember is the book by Williams.


Pert's DVDs are generally good (I have his Slav and Minor Openings ones) , so if you have an interest in the Classical Dutch, I'd probably recommend it.

You're right in that most of the material published about the Classical Dutch has been by Simon Williams. There is also the old Everyman book (by Pinski, was it?).



  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 148
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #102 - 10/05/18 at 03:57:23
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 10/05/18 at 03:21:06:
At least this new Pert DVD has a chapter "05: 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne1 - Video notation [13:12]"


So no one has the DVD yet ¿ I am wondering if I should buy it just to see what is in the 9. Ce1 line  Cheesy

If not 10. Ae3, what else would White play ¿ It would be logical to be covered, just my guess.

Classical Dutch, when compared with elite Ленинград or solid Stonewall is probably dodgier. But most White players do not prepare deeply against it so much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2897
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #101 - 10/05/18 at 03:21:06
Post Tools
At least this new Pert DVD has a chapter "05: 7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne1 - Video notation [13:12]"

He should cover 9.Ne1 d5 10.Be3! there, but I won't bet he does, as there seems to be almost a secret pact of authors and analysts ignoring this line. Even when I brought it up right here, the thread quickly swung back to focusing on the sharper 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3, which seems unnecessary when White has such a simple and strong alternative...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo