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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 58865 times)
MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #63 - 10/02/17 at 15:57:40
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine.

That's a dangerous mindset; especially the Botvinnik Wall (pawns on c4, d3, e4) is strong if Black has a bishop on e7. I learned the hard way that Williams is right suggesting to lose a tempo with ...Bc5 or even Bb4 if White plays d2-d3.
However that made me wonder how viable the Grand Prix Attack with colours reversed. In contrast to some condescense in a totally different thread I found that in several cases the tempo down actually works in Black's favour! One simple example is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 versus 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4.
The Fischer Gambit against Saidy  in 1969 is dubious at best though.


HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines?

I'm not exactly sure, but I found it very hard to develop even a bit of counterplay and not only in our game.

HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
6...Ne4, for example?

That's what I'm looking at at the moment. After our game I played another two corr. games with the IZ; one more loss and one draw. After that I switched to ...Bb4+ with fine results (1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+). As I've given up the French I need something after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 and then Alekhine's choice is the first thing to look at.
  

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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #62 - 10/02/17 at 15:57:22
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine.

That's a dangerous mindset; especially the Botvinnik Wall (pawns on c4, d3, e4) is strong if Black has a bishop on e7. I learned the hard way that Williams is right suggesting to lose a tempo with ...Bc5 or even Bb4 if White plays d2-d3.
However that made me wonder how viable the Grand Prix Attack with colours reversed. In contrast to some condescense in a totally different thread I found that in several cases the tempo down actually works in Black's favour! One simple example is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 versus 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4.
The Fischer Gambit against Saidy  in 1969 is dubious at best though.


HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines?

I'm not exactly sure, but I found it very hard to develop even a bit of counterplay and not only in our game.

HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
6...Ne4, for example?

That's what I'm looking at at the moment. After our game I played another two corr. games with the IZ; one more loss and one draw. After that I switched to ...Bb4+ with fine results (1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+). As I've given up the French I need something after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 and then Alekhine's choice is the first thing to look at.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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HgMan
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #61 - 10/01/17 at 18:24:57
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I?ve been looking at the Dutch as an occasional response as Black, especially against 1.c4 in correspondence chess. My repertoire is one that seeks activity by creating some imbalances in the opening. I?m also keen on stressing the kinds of positions that chess engines underestimate. If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine. But what happens if White turns the game into a Dutch proper?

In reading this thread and perusing Simon Williams?s Killer Dutch, I?m beginning to wonder just how viable this is. Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines? 6...Ne4, for example? Opt for the Leningrad or Stonewall? That would all be a shame, since I?ve played the reversed Classical as White in the Bird. I won?t say it?s ironclad, but I developed a good feel for the game.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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mn
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #60 - 10/01/17 at 17:41:10
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 13:41:23:
mn wrote on 10/01/17 at 05:16:21:
What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?


Yes it is. Don't play chess late at night. I had withdrawn 14...Bf8. I am ashamed.


Haha, no worries - shit happens  Wink
  
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HgMan
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #59 - 10/01/17 at 13:41:23
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mn wrote on 10/01/17 at 05:16:21:
What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?


Yes it is. Don't play chess late at night. I had withdrawn 14...Bf8. I am ashamed.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #58 - 10/01/17 at 11:18:50
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Unfortunately I can't download the entire pgn - it took me a while to figure out moves 8-13.
14.d5 seems to equalize. In my database there are two games with 14.Be3. As the planned Be8 runs into 15.Bh3 winning the pawn I don't trust 13...Bd7 at all. As Black probably will play b7-b5 anyway it's more logical to put the bishop on b7 instead of spending three tempi to transfer it to the kingside.

"I prefer not giving my opponent such space on the queenside."
I find this a bit ironic as 6....d6 allows 7.b4 just fine. At the moment I'm looking at White's options to avoid the transpostion via 6...Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 for exactly this reason (yup, my game against HgMan a few years ago has something to do with it).

  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #57 - 10/01/17 at 05:16:21
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What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?
  
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HgMan
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #56 - 10/01/17 at 03:05:08
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 07/03/14 at 13:15:45:
Here's the PGN for Simon Williams' video on http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/:



In the notes to 13...Bd7 14.d5 Be8 15.Bf4 exd5 16.exd5 Nb4: why not 15.dxc6 ? Which seems more or less winning on the spot. Williams offers the same line in his Killer Dutch. It's a sideline (13...b5 remains the main option), but it seems as though Black needs to be looking for resources: 14...Be8?? isn't one of them.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #55 - 01/23/16 at 20:26:46
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After reading Williams recent book, and despite the main lines not being theoretically watertight for black, I've decided to give this opening a go. At my level, i'm pretty happy to play a thematical hack on the kingside.

Sort of played two games so far, the first a souped up version against the English, where i sacrificed two pieces to open up and mate my opponent and a dutch position that transposed from an exchange Alekhine that bamboozled my opponent and i was able to win after using some ideas i picked up in the book.

So safe to say that i'm learning a lot and finding it fun  Cheesy
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #54 - 12/31/15 at 02:10:21
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Well, that was unpleasant.
If he had tried gh2+ then the PC says it is still a game, but it looks to me like white will hold out.
Going all in - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Tomorrow is another day, another year.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #53 - 12/30/15 at 16:13:11
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Simon is playing a classical dutch set up today against Romanishin at Hastings. He's about an hour up on the clock, just as things are getting hairy - He's sacked one knight and is going give up another piece for an attack on white's king...he's ran out of attack Sad

     
« Last Edit: 10/03/17 at 10:33:04 by GMTonyKosten »  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #52 - 05/26/15 at 03:13:12
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It worked so well for me that I downloaded the pdf from his website too, I keep the Dutch classical or stonewall as a weapon now, together w/ Win with the Stonewall Dutch (Johnsen/Bern/Agdestein) and The Diamond Dutch (Moskalenko). Matter of taste, I don't know. I tryied some 1.f4 to be a move ahead in the key positions, let's see... Smiley
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #51 - 03/17/15 at 22:54:04
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najdorfslayer wrote on 03/13/15 at 20:33:00:
Bibs wrote on 03/13/15 at 11:08:21:
Not impressed? Care to share specifics of your concerns...?

Bibs wrote on 03/13/15 at 11:08:21:
Not impressed? Care to share specifics of your concerns...?


Well 3 major chapters on the Main line. He gives lots of data on ...a5 saying, he doesn't play it any more because it's basically busted.

He then gives another major chapter on ...Qe8 saying that he doesn't rate it and that he has a 0/4 score with it.

He then gives a chapter on ...Nc6 saying it's dubious but a good surprise weapon.

All that I could possibly t
live with but does not inspire me to take up the Dutch.

Also the book is very thick. But most of it is not analysis but overloaded with needless diagrams. Analysis not so deep.

I need to read it a bit more and I may change my mind, it's just personal taste but compared to say a Quality Chess book it doesn't cut it.

I am sure others may like it. Me personally didn't


This pretty well sums it up. It's nowhere near as comprehensive as Tony's Killer Sicilian book and its surprising its in the same series. It's also not as good as his book on the french.

I found it odd that so much of the book is given over to lines that he thinks are dubious or busted. Its not even just the mainlines but also the 2. bg5 line where he gives an early Rh7.

Still after all that criticism i enjoyed reading it (i'm a fairly weak player) and maybe the classical dutch is in relatively poor shape and he is just being fair in his assessment..
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #50 - 03/14/15 at 08:01:49
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Is the Williams book a re-hash of his e-book does anybody know? I suspect it is but I hope there is some new analysis in there somewhere?

Akita
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #49 - 03/13/15 at 20:33:00
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Bibs wrote on 03/13/15 at 11:08:21:
Not impressed? Care to share specifics of your concerns...?

Bibs wrote on 03/13/15 at 11:08:21:
Not impressed? Care to share specifics of your concerns...?


Well 3 major chapters on the Main line. He gives lots of data on ...a5 saying, he doesn't play it any more because it's basically busted.

He then gives another major chapter on ...Qe8 saying that he doesn't rate it and that he has a 0/4 score with it.

He then gives a chapter on ...Nc6 saying it's dubious but a good surprise weapon.

All that I could possibly t
live with but does not inspire me to take up the Dutch.

Also the book is very thick. But most of it is not analysis but overloaded with needless diagrams. Analysis not so deep.

I need to read it a bit more and I may change my mind, it's just personal taste but compared to say a Quality Chess book it doesn't cut it.

I am sure others may like it. Me personally didn't
  
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