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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 106597 times)
MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #71 - 03/01/18 at 16:36:02
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brabo wrote on 03/01/18 at 12:02:46:
I know you already advertised that line.

Weird, I myself don't remember .... but my comment was not meant to contradict you, only to add.

brabo wrote on 03/01/18 at 12:02:46:
Unfortunately that is why I said that the critical position of the Classical Dutch can be reached via different move-orders. I get the position via 1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.d4
This means I never get the chance to use your idea as 6...Ne4 doesn't make sense here.

Indeed, but I wouldn't play 1...f5 anyway (not against the English either).

brabo wrote on 03/01/18 at 12:02:46:
14...Qd7 is a novelty. I checked it with Stockfish 9 without contempt Smiley and Komodo 11. After 15.Qa4 there is still a nagging edge for white. Komodo even plays 15...Qd6 which would transpose but that is of course not forced.

Black can offer a pawn for counterplay with 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 Rae8 16.b4 dxc4 17.b5 Nd8. White probably still has an edge, but the counterplay may make it a lot less nagging. See my next remark.

brabo wrote on 03/01/18 at 12:02:46:
I am looking to the opening from a scientific point of view.

From a purely scientific standpoint I side with GM Mednis, who calls 1...f5 mediocre in How To Play Good Opening Moves. The simple fact is that 1...d5 and 1...Nf6 are objectively superior. My approach is a mixture. As White I don't mind equality (but not less, which is why I always have distrusted the BGD) as long as there are enough imbalancies. As Black I'm ok with a minimal advantage for White (but I allow considerably less than GM Williams in his books) as long as I have interesting counterplay. Those two Nemec games make me feel Black is playing for nothing more than a draw. Then I'd rather pick the Lasker Defense of the QGD.
From a purely scientific point I have concluded a few years ago that the only way to play the Classical Dutch is 1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5, sending the bishop to b4. In corr. chess I don't play 1.c4 f5, 1.Nf3 f5 and 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 anymore.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #70 - 03/01/18 at 12:02:46
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MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
A few points regarding Brabo's analysis.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O d6
-because of my next remark the transposition 6...Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 is to be considered, avoiding 7....Bf6 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne5 . That means 6...Ne4 7.Nbd2 d5 too, a Stonewall, except that Black still may play ...Nc6 iso ...c6.

I know you already advertised that line. Unfortunately that is why I said that the critical position of the Classical Dutch can be reached via different move-orders. I get the position via 1.Nf3 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.d4
This means I never get the chance to use your idea as 6...Ne4 doesn't make sense here.

MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3
-10.e3 allows c5. I am not saying this is easy peasy; the Classical Dutch never is, not even when play is equal. That's sort of the point of this defense.

11.dxc5 Nc6 12.b4! leads to a very nice advantage for white. Yes I did check those +1700 games as mentioned in my article.

MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
10...Nc6
-perhaps 10...exf3 immediately to avoid the next note. However Black will have to work on 11.Nxf3 Nc6 (Bf6 12.e3 Nc6 13.Qc2 and Brabo is right that White is better) 12.b3 and especially 12.Be3.

I have 12.Qd3 Bf6 13.Be3 which is very similar and again white is better.
MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
11.e3
-11.fxe4 Rxf1+ 12.Kxf1 dxc4 13.Nf3 b5 14.Be3 looks like Black's biggest problem.

See my notes in which I refer to some very recent (2015, 2017) correspondence draws which were achieved by 14...Qf8.
MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
11...exf3 12.Nxf3 b6
-excellent point that Black must get in the queen's fianchetto first.

13.Bd2 Bb7 14.Rc1 Qd7
-I think this better than 14...Qd6. The plan Brabo gives doesn't work that well anymore:

15.Qc2 Rae8 16.cxd5 exd5 17.b4 Bf6 18.b5 Nd8
-Pawn b5 is hanging and with a quick Rf7 Black will protect the 7th row. A sample line is 19.a4 Rf7 20.Qd3 c6 21.Bb4 Ne6, which is a bit similar to the Tartakower. Black optimally exploits White's weakling on e3. So I think 11.fxe4 still critical.

14...Qd7 is a novelty. I checked it with Stockfish 9 without contempt Smiley and Komodo 11. After 15.Qa4 there is still a nagging edge for white. Komodo even plays 15...Qd6 which would transpose but that is of course not forced.

MNb wrote on 03/01/18 at 09:40:25:
"This was breathtaking chess. This level of modern correspondence-chess can not be achieved by us mortals in otb."
Again that's sort of the point. White can't either, hence Black has winning chances.

I am looking to the opening from a scientific point of view. For OTB we can just refer to any recent published work available as I did in my article.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #69 - 03/01/18 at 09:40:25
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A few points regarding Brabo's analysis.

1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 Be7 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O d6
-because of my next remark the transposition 6...Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 is to be considered, avoiding 7....Bf6 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Ne5 . That means 6...Ne4 7.Nbd2 d5 too, a Stonewall, except that Black still may play ...Nc6 iso ...c6.

7.Nc3
-7.b4 is a problem too.

7...Ne4 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 d5 10.f3
-10.e3 allows c5. I am not saying this is easy peasy; the Classical Dutch never is, not even when play is equal. That's sort of the point of this defense.

10...Nc6
-perhaps 10...exf3 immediately to avoid the next note. However Black will have to work on 11.Nxf3 Nc6 (Bf6 12.e3 Nc6 13.Qc2 and Brabo is right that White is better) 12.b3 and especially 12.Be3.

11.e3
-11.fxe4 Rxf1+ 12.Kxf1 dxc4 13.Nf3 b5 14.Be3 looks like Black's biggest problem.

11...exf3 12.Nxf3 b6
-excellent point that Black must get in the queen's fianchetto first.

13.Bd2 Bb7 14.Rc1 Qd7
-I think this better than 14...Qd6. The plan Brabo gives doesn't work that well anymore:

15.Qc2 Rae8 16.cxd5 exd5 17.b4 Bf6 18.b5 Nd8
-Pawn b5 is hanging and with a quick Rf7 Black will protect the 7th row. A sample line is 19.a4 Rf7 20.Qd3 c6 21.Bb4 Ne6, which is a bit similar to the Tartakower. Black optimally exploits White's weakling on e3. So I think 11.fxe4 still critical.

"This was breathtaking chess. This level of modern correspondence-chess can not be achieved by us mortals in otb."
Again that's sort of the point. White can't either, hence Black has winning chances.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #68 - 02/28/18 at 19:22:02
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Stigma wrote on 02/28/18 at 18:13:53:
the line I tried hardest to get to work in the past was 7...a5.

I concentrated at 8.b3 also the choice of Jan Gustafsson against Magnus Carlsen. The resulting positions look very depressing for black. Because of it I didn't look at other alternatives for white at move 8 so possibly there is even something stronger.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #67 - 02/28/18 at 19:17:03
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Stigma wrote on 02/28/18 at 18:13:53:
Very interesting analysis, brabo! I've struggled for years to understand why 7...Ne4 is considered Black's best – White seems better in all lines.

The Classical Dutch is just an occasional blitz weapon for me now, but the line I tried hardest to get to work in the past was 7...a5. Then 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Qd3 and 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Qc2 are critical. I can't recall seeing any real analysis of the Stonewall switch with 9...d5!? against either of these, though Williams quotes a Naumkin game with it (against 9.Qd3) in The Killer Dutch. I know ...d5 is out of character for Classical Dutch players, but objectively it might be worth a try?


Thanks Brabo, I havent read the article properly but have given it a cursary glance and it looks really interesting.

I think Moskalenko in his Diamond Dutch book agreed with William's recommendation in the 7...Ne4 line as equalising, can't remember what that was though of the top of my head.

I've never played the Ne4 line, i just figure most white players will be swapping that knight off and not giving me the type of king side hacks i'm looking for...i've only ever played the 7...Qe8  line and appear to have missed out on all the fun people on here had with 7...a5.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #66 - 02/28/18 at 18:13:53
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Very interesting analysis, brabo! I've struggled for years to understand why 7...Ne4 is considered Black's best – White seems better in all lines.

The Classical Dutch is just an occasional blitz weapon for me now, but the line I tried hardest to get to work in the past was 7...a5. Then 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Qd3 and 8.Re1 Ne4 9.Qc2 are critical. I can't recall seeing any real analysis of the Stonewall switch with 9...d5!? against either of these, though Williams quotes a Naumkin game with it (against 9.Qd3) in The Killer Dutch. I know ...d5 is out of character for Classical Dutch players, but objectively it might be worth a try?
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #65 - 02/28/18 at 17:00:41
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In my just published article I gave a brief summary of the status of the Classical Dutch: https://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2018/02/to-analyze-using-computer-part-3.html
Below you can replay the theoretical extract:
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #64 - 10/05/17 at 03:34:15
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Thanks for this. I've turned my attention to the Stonewall, which I think suits the rest of the repertoire a bit better. My primary interest is in finding the kinds of opening positions that can momentarily confound engines for correspondence chess. But if the Classical is theoretically problematic for Black, this might not be the best place to be looking.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #63 - 10/02/17 at 15:57:40
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine.

That's a dangerous mindset; especially the Botvinnik Wall (pawns on c4, d3, e4) is strong if Black has a bishop on e7. I learned the hard way that Williams is right suggesting to lose a tempo with ...Bc5 or even Bb4 if White plays d2-d3.
However that made me wonder how viable the Grand Prix Attack with colours reversed. In contrast to some condescense in a totally different thread I found that in several cases the tempo down actually works in Black's favour! One simple example is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 versus 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4.
The Fischer Gambit against Saidy  in 1969 is dubious at best though.


HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines?

I'm not exactly sure, but I found it very hard to develop even a bit of counterplay and not only in our game.

HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
6...Ne4, for example?

That's what I'm looking at at the moment. After our game I played another two corr. games with the IZ; one more loss and one draw. After that I switched to ...Bb4+ with fine results (1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+). As I've given up the French I need something after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 and then Alekhine's choice is the first thing to look at.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #62 - 10/02/17 at 15:57:22
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine.

That's a dangerous mindset; especially the Botvinnik Wall (pawns on c4, d3, e4) is strong if Black has a bishop on e7. I learned the hard way that Williams is right suggesting to lose a tempo with ...Bc5 or even Bb4 if White plays d2-d3.
However that made me wonder how viable the Grand Prix Attack with colours reversed. In contrast to some condescense in a totally different thread I found that in several cases the tempo down actually works in Black's favour! One simple example is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bb5 Nd4 versus 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4.
The Fischer Gambit against Saidy  in 1969 is dubious at best though.


HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines?

I'm not exactly sure, but I found it very hard to develop even a bit of counterplay and not only in our game.

HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 18:24:57:
6...Ne4, for example?

That's what I'm looking at at the moment. After our game I played another two corr. games with the IZ; one more loss and one draw. After that I switched to ...Bb4+ with fine results (1.d4 e6 2.c4 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Bb4+). As I've given up the French I need something after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 and then Alekhine's choice is the first thing to look at.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #61 - 10/01/17 at 18:24:57
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I?ve been looking at the Dutch as an occasional response as Black, especially against 1.c4 in correspondence chess. My repertoire is one that seeks activity by creating some imbalances in the opening. I?m also keen on stressing the kinds of positions that chess engines underestimate. If White is slow or reluctant to advance d2-d4, then Black is surely fine. But what happens if White turns the game into a Dutch proper?

In reading this thread and perusing Simon Williams?s Killer Dutch, I?m beginning to wonder just how viable this is. Am I right in understanding, MNb, that Black needs to deviate early from the main lines? 6...Ne4, for example? Opt for the Leningrad or Stonewall? That would all be a shame, since I?ve played the reversed Classical as White in the Bird. I won?t say it?s ironclad, but I developed a good feel for the game.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #60 - 10/01/17 at 17:41:10
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HgMan wrote on 10/01/17 at 13:41:23:
fjd wrote on 10/01/17 at 05:16:21:
What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?


Yes it is. Don't play chess late at night. I had withdrawn 14...Bf8. I am ashamed.


Haha, no worries - shit happens  Wink
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #59 - 10/01/17 at 13:41:23
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fjd wrote on 10/01/17 at 05:16:21:
What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?


Yes it is. Don't play chess late at night. I had withdrawn 14...Bf8. I am ashamed.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #58 - 10/01/17 at 11:18:50
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Unfortunately I can't download the entire pgn - it took me a while to figure out moves 8-13.
14.d5 seems to equalize. In my database there are two games with 14.Be3. As the planned Be8 runs into 15.Bh3 winning the pawn I don't trust 13...Bd7 at all. As Black probably will play b7-b5 anyway it's more logical to put the bishop on b7 instead of spending three tempi to transfer it to the kingside.

"I prefer not giving my opponent such space on the queenside."
I find this a bit ironic as 6....d6 allows 7.b4 just fine. At the moment I'm looking at White's options to avoid the transpostion via 6...Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 for exactly this reason (yup, my game against HgMan a few years ago has something to do with it).

  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #57 - 10/01/17 at 05:16:21
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What do you mean - isn't the d-pawn pinned?
  
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