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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Dutch - White Seems Better (Read 48892 times)
brabo
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #100 - 10/04/18 at 21:23:01
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MNb wrote on 10/04/18 at 13:49:25:
brabo wrote on 10/04/18 at 10:16:18:
I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

This cure is worse than the disease, I'm afraid.


1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.d4 Ne4 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Re1 Nc6 10.e4 wins a pawn more or less by force.

8...Nc6 9.Re1 Na5 doesn't look that ugly
Anyway it is not relevant for my games as I can't reach that position.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #99 - 10/04/18 at 19:57:55
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I am thinking of this DVD for buy, would you recommend ¿ The other resource on Classical Dutch that I remember is the book by Williams.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #98 - 10/04/18 at 13:49:25
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brabo wrote on 10/04/18 at 10:16:18:
I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

This cure is worse than the disease, I'm afraid.


1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.d4 Ne4 7.Nc3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 d6 9.Re1 Nc6 10.e4 wins a pawn more or less by force.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #97 - 10/04/18 at 10:16:18
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MNb wrote on 10/04/18 at 09:21:29:
It looks like I need to purchase this DVD. It would be the first one as I have an instinctive aversion against this medium (books and internet articles have a higher information density). Hence it might take a while. Still thanks for the link.
Btw a remark of yours from several pages ago is partly incorrect. White can avoid the real Alekhine Variation (6...Ne4) with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, but not the delayed version (6...d6 and 7...Ne4). And the latter is the on one I'm interested in. Example:

1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.Nc3 d6 and neither 7.d3 Nc6 nor 7.b4 e5 is a bigger problem for Black than 6.d4 Ne4.

I thought you wanted to play Ne4 before white has played Nc3 so you can first exchange on c3 before white can do on e4. It is Nxe4 which we consider as one of the most critical tests so avoiding it would be great.

Personally I am also not used watching DVDs about chess. I guess I am also old fashioned as I notice that the younger players prefer DVDs above books. I also have my doubts in how much content can be included in a DVD unless there are some pgn files attached which include additional analysis. However considering how easily this can be illegally copied, only few editors want to take such risks.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #96 - 10/04/18 at 09:21:29
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It looks like I need to purchase this DVD. It would be the first one as I have an instinctive aversion against this medium (books and internet articles have a higher information density). Hence it might take a while. Still thanks for the link.
Btw a remark of yours from several pages ago is partly incorrect. White can avoid the real Alekhine Variation (6...Ne4) with 1.c4 or 1.Nf3, but not the delayed version (6...d6 and 7...Ne4). And the latter is the on one I'm interested in. Example:

1.Nf3 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Bg2 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 5.c4 O-O 6.Nc3 d6 and neither 7.d3 Nc6 nor 7.b4 e5 is a bigger problem for Black than 6.d4 Ne4.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #95 - 10/04/18 at 08:12:26
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Has anybody reviewed the new DVD from the English grandmaster Nicholas Pert: https://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/pert_the_aggressive_classical_dutch?ref=R...?
How does it stand against the analysis provided here?
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #94 - 03/22/18 at 08:10:15
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1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 (perhaps I should take another look at the Blumenfeld Gambit) 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.O-O O-O 6.c4 Ne4 7.Nc3 d6 8.Nxe4 fxe4 9.Nd2 (9.Ne1) d5 10.f3 Nc6 11.e3 fxe3 12.Nxf3 b6 13.Bd2

Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/04/18 at 08:01:34:
It seems to me, however, that the earlier move 13...Bb7? is inaccurate. In some lines Black might want to play Bc8-a6. Thus it seems more urgent to play 13...a5 at once, to take White's threat b2-b4 out of the position. For example 14.cxd5 (14.Rf2 Bb7 followed by dxc4) 14...exd5 15.Qb3 Kh8 16.Rac1 Bb7, and now:
(a) 17.Nh4 Rxf1+ 18.Rxf1 Ba6 19.Rf5 Bc4 20.Qc2 g6 =.
(b) 17.Ne1 Rxf1+ 18.Kxf1 Nb8 19.Kg1 c6 20.e4 dxe4 21.Be3 a4, and again it's an open fight, about =.

I hope I haven't missed any follow up on this line. For now I'd like to point out that 14.Rac1 Ba6 15.cxd5 Bxf1 16.Qxf1 Qxd5 17.Qe2 Qd6 18.Ne1 Nb4 doesn't seem to give White much.
Instinctively I'd prefer 10...Nc6 to 10...Bf6. In my experience the Classical Dutch has one thing in common with the QGD: Black needs to answer the question what to do with his/her queenside or White will be better.
  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #93 - 03/14/18 at 22:59:02
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You are right, 10. e3 c5 is unplayable. This leaves 10...Na6.

brabo wrote on 03/13/18 at 18:48:11:
Besides transposing there is also 10.e3 Na6 11.a3 c5 12.b4 as interesting. I don't believe it is stronger however.
I also had a quick look at your long line 10.f3 Bf6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6 13.Bd2 dxc4 14.Qc2 c5 15.Qxc4 Bd7 16.Ne5 Qe8 and now 17.Nxd7 Qxd7 18.Bc3 is more natural than 17.a4 This can be a big improvement.

My analysis after 18.Bc3 went cxd4 19.exd4 Rac8 20.Qd3 Rb8 21.Rad1 Nc7 22.Be4 h6 23.Qe2 Nd5 (23...b5?! 24.a3 might be similar, but also allows 24.Rxf6!?) 24.Bd3 Bg5 25.Qe4 Rf5 26.Rxf5 exf5 27.Qxf5 Qxf5 28.Bxf5 Kf7, which looked like a draw in spite of White's extra pawn. But I admit that it looks shaky - there exist strong alternatives, like 26.Rfe1 Re8 27.Re2. So I have to accept that this is a refutation.

brabo wrote on 03/13/18 at 18:48:11:
There is also 10.f3 Bf6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6 13.b3 b6 14.cxd5 exd5 15.Ne5 Re8 16.Qh5 Be6 17.Ng4 or even a move earlier 16.Ng4. I only spent a couple of minutes at it but it all looks scary for black.

Both moves lead to the same position, 17.Ng4 Bxg4 18.Qxg4 c6, for example 19.Bd2 Qd6 20.Rac1 Rad8 21.b4 b5 and it seems to me that Black defends his (passive) position. - Since 13.Bd2 seems "strong enough" after your Nxd7, we don't need to discuss 13.b3 further.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #92 - 03/13/18 at 18:48:11
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/13/18 at 12:31:11:
In my database the move order 10.e3 was chosen in 10 games, versus 10.f3 in 134 games. The main reason could be 10.e3 c5 which scored 50% in five games.

The standard games are of a very low quality.
10.e3 c5 11.dxc5 Nc6 12.b4 (This is a beautiful novelty which my engine discovered a couple of months ago) Nxb4 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qb3 Nc6 15.Bxe4 and white is clearly better

Besides transposing there is also 10.e3 Na6 11.a3 c5 12.b4 as interesting. I don't believe it is stronger however.
I also had a quick look at your long line 10.f3 Bf6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6 13.Bd2 dxc4 14.Qc2 c5 15.Qxc4 Bd7 16.Ne5 Qe8 and now 17.Nxd7 Qxd7 18.Bc3 is more natural than 17.a4 This can be a big improvement.
There is also 10.f3 Bf6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6 13.b3 b6 14.cxd5 exd5 15.Ne5 Re8 16.Qh5 Be6 17.Ng4 or even a move earlier 16.Ng4. I only spent a couple of minutes at it but it all looks scary for black.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #91 - 03/13/18 at 12:31:11
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brabo wrote on 03/12/18 at 16:56:38:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/12/18 at 12:01:57:
Even 13...a5 may be "too late" to generate chances for Black. It's too solid for that. If I were pressed for a suggestion, I'd say that 10...Bf6! looks "messier" to me than 10...Nc6. For example 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6* 13.Bd2 dxc4 14.Qc2 c5, tackling the center. 15.Qxc4 Bd7 16.Ne5 Qe8 17.a4 Bxe5 would then create a position evaluated by the engine as better for White. But I don't think this is true, [...]

I already had 12..Na6 in my notes. The analysis continued with 13.b3 b6 14.cxd5 exd5 with some advantage for white.
Also I already remarked on my original post that white can inverse the move-order by playing first 10.e3 and only after 10...Nc6 play 11.f3. Then 10....Bf6 gives white the extra possibility of 11.b4
Anyway many continuations for both sides are possible. Till now I like the most 13...a5. I would need to spend a week at it to come to a more complete verdict but I will not do. For sure black needs to memorize a lot of only moves against a whole bunch of interesting white lines. It is not practical for standard chess.

In my database the move order 10.e3 was chosen in 10 games, versus 10.f3 in 134 games. The main reason could be 10.e3 c5 which scored 50% in five games. If Black wanted to transpose to my line, it would be via 10.e3 Na6 (not Bf6?!). For example 11.f3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Bf6 with a transposition (or perhaps 12....dxc4 13.Ne5 Bf6 +=).

After 12...Na6 your reply 13.b3 b6 14.cxd5 exd5 may be best. A possible continuation: 15.Ne5 Re8 16.Qh5 Be6 17.Ba3 Bxe5 18.Qxe5 Qd7 19.Rf2 c6 20.Raf1 Rad8 21.Qh5 Nc7 22.e4 a5 23.e5 Nb5 24.Bb2 c5 25.dxc5 bxc5 26.Qe2 with a choice between 26...c4 27.a4 c3 with a likely draw, and riskier attempts of 26...Qc6/b7 inviting h4-h5.

The variation 10.f3 Nc6 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 b6 13.Bd2 Bb7 (13...a5!?) 14.Rc1 Qd7 15.Qa4 a5 16.a3! Rf7 17.Ne1! Bf6 18.cxd5 exd5 19.Nd3 Nd8 20.Qxd7 Rxd7 21.Nf4 c6 22.h4 can be seen as "unpleasant" for Black, to use brabo's word. After a few hours the PC gives the following continuation: 22...Ba6 23.Rf2 Bb5 24.b3 a4 25.bxa4 Rxa4 (+0.43), and from this point both sides are only shuffling their pieces around (or so it seems to me), without achieving much. The plus for White is real, but there are no realistic pawn breaks.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #90 - 03/12/18 at 17:07:31
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MNb wrote on 03/12/18 at 15:24:56:
brabo wrote on 03/11/18 at 19:40:30:
20.Bg2 Qf5 eg 21.Qc2 Qf2+ 22.Kh1 Qe2 23.Nd3 Bd6 24.Re1 Qh5 24.Qd1 Qf5 25.Rf1 Qg5 26.Rxf8 Bxf8 27.Qc1 Qf5 28.Nf4

AfaIcs 24...Rf5 doesn't (what sense does Qh5-f5-g5 make?!), but I haven't look far at all because it's pretty irrelevant due to 17.Ne1.

24...Rf5 also is not pleasant 25.Qxh5 Rxh5 26.Kg1 Ba6 27.Nf2
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #89 - 03/12/18 at 16:56:38
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/12/18 at 12:01:57:
16...Rad8 is a good idea, also looks more natural than the PC's 16...Rf6 (which is good enough imo). The surprise 19.Ne5? b5! is nice. 19.Qc4 may result in a draw after 19...Rc8 20.Ne5 Nxe5 21.dxe5 Qxd2 22.Bxb7 Rxf1+ 23.Rxf1 Rf8 24.Qxe6+ Kh8 25.Rxf8+ Bxf8 26.Qf7 Qxe3+ 27.Kg2 Qd2+ followed by Qd8. 

The engines still give a small edge for white but I agree that with correct play black should be able to draw thanks to the opposite bishops. Of course you don't want to defend this voluntarily against anybody.
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/12/18 at 12:01:57:

Even 13...a5 may be "too late" to generate chances for Black. It's too solid for that. If I were pressed for a suggestion, I'd say that 10...Bf6! looks "messier" to me than 10...Nc6. For example 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6* 13.Bd2 dxc4 14.Qc2 c5, tackling the center. 15.Qxc4 Bd7 16.Ne5 Qe8 17.a4 Bxe5 would then create a position evaluated by the engine as better for White. But I don't think this is true, how is White supposed to make progress? Just the usual overestimation of the bishop pair...

* This would be a novelty in my database, or N in Quality Chess speak (n in my version, no serious checking of books).

I already had 12..Na6 in my notes. The analysis continued with 13.b3 b6 14.cxd5 exd5 with some advantage for white.
Also I already remarked on my original post that white can inverse the move-order by playing first 10.e3 and only after 10...Nc6 play 11.f3. Then 10....Bf6 gives white the extra possibility of 11.b4
Anyway many continuations for both sides are possible. Till now I like the most 13...a5. I would need to spend a week at it to come to a more complete verdict but I will not do. For sure black needs to memorize a lot of only moves against a whole bunch of interesting white lines. It is not practical for standard chess.
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #88 - 03/12/18 at 15:24:56
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brabo wrote on 03/11/18 at 19:40:30:
20.Bg2 Qf5 eg 21.Qc2 Qf2+ 22.Kh1 Qe2 23.Nd3 Bd6 24.Re1 Qh5 24.Qd1 Qf5 25.Rf1 Qg5 26.Rxf8 Bxf8 27.Qc1 Qf5 28.Nf4

AfaIcs 24...Rf5 doesn't (what sense does Qh5-f5-g5 make?!), but I haven't look far at all because it's pretty irrelevant due to 17.Ne1.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/12/18 at 12:01:57:
1. I feel these things are totally different in correspondence chess
2. and I am the wrong guy to advise corr players.

@1 - that's totally correct. In corr. chess I have given up the Kieler Gamhit 20 years ago and since about five years I think only the Classical Dutch with ...Bb4(+) is eventually playable. Classicals with ...Be7 are way too risky.
@2 - then you're at the right place here, for I only might consider taking up the Dutch for my glorious (ahem) OTB comeback.

  

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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better. Or not.
Reply #87 - 03/12/18 at 12:01:57
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MNb wrote on 03/10/18 at 10:05:09:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/04/18 at 08:01:34:
After 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 I'd prefer 15...a5 (as this b2-b4 attack is so disrupting in many lines), for example 16.Bh3 Rf6 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne1 Rxf1+ 20.Kxf1 Rf8+ 21.Kg1 Nd8 22.Bxb7 Nxb7 23.Qc6 Qxc6 24.Rxc6 Bd6 25.Nd3 Kf7! and with Black's king arriving in the center, White hasn't much.

Like Brabo I think 19.Ne5 a better try. So I wondered about 16...Rad8 (I don't really understand 16...Rf6) and 17.cxd5 Qxd5 18.Bg2 Qd6 19.Ne5?! is met with the surprising b5! After 19.Ne1 Black wins a tempo with Rxf1+. Best seems 19.Qc4.

16...Rad8 is a good idea, also looks more natural than the PC's 16...Rf6 (which is good enough imo). The surprise 19.Ne5? b5! is nice. 19.Qc4 may result in a draw after 19...Rc8 20.Ne5 Nxe5 21.dxe5 Qxd2 22.Bxb7 Rxf1+ 23.Rxf1 Rf8 24.Qxe6+ Kh8 25.Rxf8+ Bxf8 26.Qf7 Qxe3+ 27.Kg2 Qd2+ followed by Qd8. 

brabo wrote on 03/07/18 at 10:58:51:
My interest is not merely abstract; I would like the Dutch to be playable (ie enabling me to play for a win, even if I would be objectively a bit worse) but run into too many lines that leave Black struggling for a draw. It's like the Kieler Gambit.

One day I might return to that K. Gambit. There was a serious problem with one line...

About your desire to get messy positions, even "play for a win" with Black, I feel these things are totally different in correspondence chess, and I am the wrong guy to advise corr players. Playable lines in OTB chess can be truly problematic in correspondence. "Play for a win" - the Evans Gambit would be a great choice for that. It has worked for WM Purdy even in correspondence chess. But the sharpest Evans Gambit lines today look like a forced draw... the task to identify "messy" lines fit to go for a 0-1 in correspondence looks more and more like Mission Impossible.

Even 13...a5 may be "too late" to generate chances for Black. It's too solid for that. If I were pressed for a suggestion, I'd say that 10...Bf6! looks "messier" to me than 10...Nc6. For example 11.e3 exf3 12.Nxf3 Na6* 13.Bd2 dxc4 14.Qc2 c5, tackling the center. 15.Qxc4 Bd7 16.Ne5 Qe8 17.a4 Bxe5 would then create a position evaluated by the engine as better for White. But I don't think this is true, how is White supposed to make progress? Just the usual overestimation of the bishop pair...

* This would be a novelty in my database, or N in Quality Chess speak (n in my version, no serious checking of books).
  
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Re: Classical Dutch - White Seems Better
Reply #86 - 03/11/18 at 19:40:30
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MNb wrote on 03/11/18 at 08:35:47:
I'd be OK with 20.Bg2 Qf5 eg 21.Qc2 Qf2+ 22.Kh1 Qe2 with a messy position

23.Nd3 Bd6 24.Re1 Qh5 24.Qd1 Qf5 25.Rf1 Qg5 26.Rxf8 Bxf8 27.Qc1 Qf5 28.Nf4 and white wins an important pawn.
Nowadays engines have become so strong that many messy positions can be solved.
  
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