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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stockfish 4 release (Read 9541 times)
Benoniac
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #11 - 08/21/13 at 22:09:19
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tony37 wrote on 08/21/13 at 17:22:11:
TN wrote on 08/21/13 at 11:15:28:
it is much faster on my laptop. If you want a very quick indication of the best move in the position or else check if there's a winning tactic then Stockfish is probably best

I think you are just wrong here, Stockfish is more likely to miss tactics exactly because it is faster, i.e. it skips lines more quickly, in many simplified endgames this doesn't matter so there Stockfish is just better

Trust me, I have been dealing with this engines a lot. Played a lot of engine matches. Let me introduce the term: "Safe working ply" to you. It means that every engine has its own platform where its starts to think "properly" and can be trusted. For H3 it needs to get to 25-26 ply at least ( in middlegames) . And for SF its 30-32 (on my computer).   Before this ply both engines will hop from this to that, so give them time  Smiley  In other words: get to know where the  engines stop to "change their minds" and stick to their varaition(s). 

I think TN has a good point. And I cannot imagine that SF will miss tactics because of its efficiency. At least I never saw examples of it.

Ben
  

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Markovich
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #10 - 08/21/13 at 21:07:54
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/21/13 at 20:29:09:
I am more towards TN's opinion. Stockfish is close, but not yet as strong as Houdini. But in TWEC's season 2 i am sure that if Houdart doesn't compete with a development version of Houdini, both Komodo and Stockfish might be able to even throught it out of the final! For example, i see now that in IPON's live tournament results Stockfish scores 54% against Houdini and  51% against Komodo, but does not great against the other engines, so probably it won't be at IPON #1. Similar results were seen in the Owl chess webpage. Houdini is still best, but won't be able to survive for long. SF is getting better and better fast and it is a matter of months...


Which is great, and demonstrates the power of open source.  I am not all sure, either, that the difference in strength between Houdini and Stockfish is sufficient to justify the difference in price!
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #9 - 08/21/13 at 20:29:09
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I am more towards TN's opinion. Stockfish is close, but not yet as strong as Houdini. But in TWEC's season 2 i am sure that if Houdart doesn't compete with a development version of Houdini, both Komodo and Stockfish might be able to even throught it out of the final! For example, i see now that in IPON's live tournament results Stockfish scores 54% against Houdini and  51% against Komodo, but does not great against the other engines, so probably it won't be at IPON #1. Similar results were seen in the Owl chess webpage. Houdini is still best, but won't be able to survive for long. SF is getting better and better fast and it is a matter of months...
  
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tony37
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #8 - 08/21/13 at 17:22:11
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TN wrote on 08/21/13 at 11:15:28:
it is much faster on my laptop. If you want a very quick indication of the best move in the position or else check if there's a winning tactic then Stockfish is probably best

I think you are just wrong here, Stockfish is more likely to miss tactics exactly because it is faster, i.e. it skips lines more quickly, in many simplified endgames this doesn't matter so there Stockfish is just better
  
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Benoniac
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #7 - 08/21/13 at 17:00:05
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I guess you both are right Smiley

SF is usually very good in positions with space advantage. I have also used SF in closed and blocked  MacChucteon positions and it surely played better than H3 there. But that is also the only pawn structure its plays better than H3, in my opinion ( at least the only one I found so far). An open-or semi open centre and H3 feel more at home; it should be enough to look at the rating list of these engines.

But dont underestimate SF endgame skills. It plays very well in the endgame, even without tablebases like I have mentioned before. 

All the best.

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tony37
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #6 - 08/21/13 at 16:05:23
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an example from a French Winawer:
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* * * * * * * *
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Houdini says white is better (not a lot admittedly, there may be clearer examples), Stockfish says it's completely equal
this thing happens a lot in the 6...Qa5 Winawer, Houdini giving a clear white advantage, but there's just no way white can make progress if the black king goes to the queenside (not the kingside as Houdini would suggest)

another one from a King's Indian:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
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*
now my Houdini 1.5 (I don't know if H3 has improved somewhat in this aspect) gives white a +1 advantage, Stockfish says it's equal, Stockfish right again, the position is just blockaded

that said, I mostly use Houdini for analysis
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #5 - 08/21/13 at 15:29:27
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TN wrote Today at 15:30:
In my experience Houdini understands pawn structures and the initiative better than any other engine I've used to analyse, Stockfish included. Other engines are hopeless at evaluating long-term factors in the position.

??
Houdini is ridiculous in a lot of blocked positions, where Stockfish is a lot better
maybe you're thinking about something else but then some examples are welcome

Examples from both of you would be welcome!
  
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tony37
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #4 - 08/21/13 at 15:17:11
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TN wrote on 08/21/13 at 14:30:40:
In my experience Houdini understands pawn structures and the initiative better than any other engine I've used to analyse, Stockfish included. Other engines are hopeless at evaluating long-term factors in the position.

??
Houdini is ridiculous in a lot of blocked positions, where Stockfish is a lot better
maybe you're thinking about something else but then some examples are welcome
  
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TN
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #3 - 08/21/13 at 14:30:40
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In my experience Houdini understands pawn structures and the initiative better than any other engine I've used to analyse, Stockfish included. Other engines are hopeless at evaluating long-term factors in the position.
  

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Master Om
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #2 - 08/21/13 at 13:15:26
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TN wrote on 08/21/13 at 11:15:28:
I downloaded this engine and worked on some games with it today. My provisional conclusion is that its evaluation function is still worse than Houdini's, especially in positions with a material imbalance, but it is much faster on my laptop. If you want a very quick indication of the best move in the position or else check if there's a winning tactic then Stockfish is probably best, but if you're trying to get to the truth of the position or want to test positional ideas, Houdini is still better.



Not true. Houdini still doesn't understand pawn movements and king side attack.
  
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TN
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Re: Stockfish 4 release
Reply #1 - 08/21/13 at 11:15:28
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I downloaded this engine and worked on some games with it today. My provisional conclusion is that its evaluation function is still worse than Houdini's, especially in positions with a material imbalance, but it is much faster on my laptop. If you want a very quick indication of the best move in the position or else check if there's a winning tactic then Stockfish is probably best, but if you're trying to get to the truth of the position or want to test positional ideas, Houdini is still better.
  

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Benoniac
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Stockfish 4 release
08/20/13 at 22:30:52
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And now there is a new official SF4 realese for those who`s interested. Here:

http://stockfishchess.org/download/

Ben

  

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