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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Green moves (Read 6917 times)
brabo
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Re: Green moves
Reply #14 - 09/01/13 at 20:00:01
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Vass wrote on 09/01/13 at 18:34:04:
But since we are talking about openings...and not for chess games' results..

I repeat my first post: " Shortly summarizing: I am discussing/ searching for an openingsbook/tree which gives the most accurate and detailed overview of all existing openings while being offered in such way that it can be easily used for a gamepreparation in OTB. So i certainly do talk about chess games results. I do understand that from correspondence point of view this is rather irrelevant.
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The only chance to win against a rival in the corr chess nowadays is to get += right out of the opening.
I got the impression from this statement that only += is maximum achievable in correspondence in the opening so I gave an example to contradict this although it has nothing to do with the original subject.
  
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Vass
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Re: Green moves
Reply #13 - 09/01/13 at 19:08:18
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As for the game Burg-Noble, it demonstrates how a good correspondence chess player can easily go wrong when not checking all the corr and OTB databases in a proper way. For example, the second player had to check out that his opponent had had an OTB experience in this variation even with the opposite colour. While in the corr databases the move [11...h6 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.Nf3 Be7 as shown in the game annotations at your blog] is the way to go. Precisely 11...h6 before the castling, because of that f4 & h4 idea with a bishop sac! And this move 11...h6 was played in 2 corr games in 2011 as per my private corr database, both finished with 0-1 result.  Roll Eyes

Edit: Needless to say that the whole variation is already in my private electronic opening ctg-book!  Wink
  
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Vass
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Re: Green moves
Reply #12 - 09/01/13 at 18:34:04
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Well, if we are looking for the absolute truth in the opening phase of the chess game, high-level correspondence games are definitely nearer the chess truth (if there is any, at all  Wink ). While chasing a good result OTB we can play King's Gambit, Latvian, Traxler or whatever opening we want.  Cool
In fact, there is a big difference between the correspondence and OTB chess. But since we are talking about openings...and not for chess games' results..
  
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brabo
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Re: Green moves
Reply #11 - 09/01/13 at 17:11:51
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kylemeister wrote on 09/01/13 at 16:41:52:
For the non-Dutch-readers it could be mentioned that the unrated player is a near-GM OTB, while the GM is a FIDE 2229 player who plays over a hundred games at the same time ...

I removed the information about the near-GM OTB to make the result more astonishing.
However I don't agree with you mentioning that the GM is a fide 2229 player. Do you  know that the reigning correspondence worldchampion doesn't have a fide or national rating at all? Check http://schaaksite.nl/page.php?al=ron-langeveld-wereldkampioen-correspondentiesch...
I mention this to point out that comparing OTB and correspondence ratings have very little sense. Exactly because of this I avoid an openingsbook to be built by a mix of correspondence and OTB games as the statistics would become rubbish.
  
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Re: Green moves
Reply #10 - 09/01/13 at 16:41:52
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For the non-Dutch-readers it could be mentioned that the unrated player is a near-GM OTB, while the GM is a FIDE 2229 player who plays over a hundred games at the same time ...
  
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brabo
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Re: Green moves
Reply #9 - 09/01/13 at 16:15:08
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Vass wrote on 09/01/13 at 15:08:13:
@ brabo
There are several private electronic opening books that are way better than the last Hiarcs' 14f version. I have seen many engine tests of such books that proves their superiority. The problem is that they don't have so many variations as Hiarcs' one. So to say, they're specialized in concrete variations - for example in C90 Najdorf English Attack - which helps them to beat Hiarcs easily. As for the completeness, yes - the Hiarcs book seems best.
As a correspondence chess player, I would say that one should never rely on the Hiarcs book blindly. Check every variation twice before playing it!  Wink
Imho, the best electronic opening books are made from a good selection of high-level correspondence chess games, starting from year 2007 or so. Not that one will have a chance to choose from... As far as I know, there are no such books on the market.  Wink And it's quite obvious why - the good correspondence chess players would never tell their secrets. The only chance to win against a rival in the corr chess nowadays is to get += right out of the opening.  Smiley

Personally I don't see much value to use an openingsbook in correspondence. There is plenty of time to check the keygames and make your own conclusions.
An openingsbook is interesting when there is little time to check variations which you don't know (well). In OTB it often happens that you don't have more than 1 hour to prepare. If so little time is available then you can't do more than just blindly trust the openingsbook. Exactly for this reason, I am searching for the best openingsbook (and not too expensive).

I also think that building an openingsbook to be used in OTB from correspondence games isn't the best idea. In OTB different variations are popular and also practice can give very different scores than what would be the score in correspondence chess.

Finally I also want to show a very recent correspondence game in which white (unrated player) wins directly in the opening from an experienced grandmaster (2502 elo).

For more information on this spectacular victory, read http://schaaksite.nl/page.php?al=winst-bij-correspondentieschaken
  
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Re: Green moves
Reply #8 - 09/01/13 at 15:08:13
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@ brabo
There are several private electronic opening books that are way better than the last Hiarcs' 14f version. I have seen many engine tests of such books that proves their superiority. The problem is that they don't have so many variations as Hiarcs' one. So to say, they're specialized in concrete variations - for example in C90 Najdorf English Attack - which helps them to beat Hiarcs easily. As for the completeness, yes - the Hiarcs book seems best.
As a correspondence chess player, I would say that one should never rely on the Hiarcs book blindly. Check every variation twice before playing it!  Wink
Imho, the best electronic opening books are made from a good selection of high-level correspondence chess games, starting from year 2007 or so. Not that one will have a chance to choose from... As far as I know, there are no such books on the market.  Wink And it's quite obvious why - the good correspondence chess players would never tell their secrets. The only chance to win against a rival in the corr chess nowadays is to get += right out of the opening.  Smiley
  
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brabo
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Re: Green moves
Reply #7 - 08/31/13 at 12:14:34
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TalJechin wrote on 08/31/13 at 11:40:14:
I came to think of an old thread here where Harvey Williamson refuted a line from a new book by just checking Hiarcs' ctg - so maybe that one could be a good candidate, unless it has to be free...

Btw, here's the link to the thread in question: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1265090696/215


No it doesn't have to be for free. In fact I even checked earlier on Chessbase the Hiarcs 13 Professional Openingsbook: http://www.chessbase-shop.com/en/products/5910 Price of 27,5 euro is fine but latest games inserted are from end of  2010 which is in today's chess against masters rather poor.

Now by coincidence I just found an alternative also from Hiarcs: 1 year Hiarcs Chess Opening Book Subscription: http://www.hiarcs.com/chess-opening-book.htm The latest games are very up to data (June 2013) with 858.231 variations covered so should be fine for any player (amateur or professional). In fact on the website is claimed that Anand used the Hiarcs book in his match against Topalov Only the price of 50 euro (tax still to be coming on top) I find rather expensive. As mentioned on my blog I was more thinking of something like 30 euro per year so if there would be a deal like 2 years paying and 3rd for free then I would bite.

Strange to see in the last 2 updates that the number of top quality games in the latest statistics went down. Likely some cleaning was done but it would be nice to hear from the author what exactly is going on.

Further i notice that on the website they claim that the book is the strongest around and yearly improving with 80 points. For me this is clear salestalk so before I believe this, I like to see proof of it. Anybody can help with this?

Anyway this book is certainly going in the direction what I am searching for so thanks for the hint.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Green moves
Reply #6 - 08/31/13 at 11:40:14
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brabo wrote on 08/29/13 at 20:30:15:
The topic is close to what was discussed in the thread about openingbooks, 5 principles of design, see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1377304845 but is too different to put in the same thread.

What i mean exactly, can be read in my latest blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/08/groene-zetten.html

Shortly summarizing: I am discussing/ searching for an openingsbook/tree which gives the most accurate and detailed overview of all existing openings while being offered in such way that it can be easily used for a gamepreparation in OTB.


I came to think of an old thread here where Harvey Williamson refuted a line from a new book by just checking Hiarcs' ctg - so maybe that one could be a good candidate, unless it has to be free...

Btw, here's the link to the thread in question: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1265090696/215
  
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Re: Green moves
Reply #5 - 08/30/13 at 22:19:48
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Engine-optimized opening books (trees) are tuned for use in Engine vs. Engine tournaments.  Soundness is obviously mandatory for such competitions.  I would dig around for some opening books that are distributed with engines or distributed for use by engines.

The engine databases will be strictly more sound than human databases from "God's" point of view.  For example, Blackmar-Diemer is often 60%+ in many big databases built on human games...  However, with the engine trees, who knows whether such positions are fun to play, practical, or understandable from a human point of view.
So you might try searching <Houdini/stockfish opening book> and see what you find
  

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Re: Green moves
Reply #4 - 08/30/13 at 07:45:12
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Bonsai wrote on 08/30/13 at 07:03:19:
brabo wrote on 08/30/13 at 05:19:36:
Since 2011, I've not bought anymore the latest databases from Chessbase. By just adding the latest twics for free I've not the feeling that I am missing something.

Generally, what you seem to miss is regional events organised by each chess federation (who seem to have some contract to provide this stuff to chessbase, or the CB guys just keep searching the net for it). Obviously, for my own region, I know where to get e.g. the Oberliga and Verbandsliga games of Baden-Würrtemberg, but if I prepare for some guy from further away in a tournament, then I've noticed differences between "Old database + TWIC" vs. the Chessbase online database with that kind of event.

Thanks for the information. As headquarters of Chessbase is located in Germany, I can understand that it is for Chessbase quite easy to pick up games from the regional German tournaments but is that also the case for other countries? I notice in my database of 2011 (so official one from Chessbase) that many games of regional tournaments in my country are missing despite being published on a website.
As most of my games are played against players from my region, I download all regional games which I can find on the internet (for free) if I notice that twic didn't include them. This is a minority of the total available games in twics just to indicate that with only twics you don't miss much.
  
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Re: Green moves
Reply #3 - 08/30/13 at 07:03:19
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brabo wrote on 08/30/13 at 05:19:36:
Since 2011, I've not bought anymore the latest databases from Chessbase. By just adding the latest twics for free I've not the feeling that I am missing something.

Generally, what you seem to miss is regional events organised by each chess federation (who seem to have some contract to provide this stuff to chessbase, or the CB guys just keep searching the net for it). Obviously, for my own region, I know where to get e.g. the Oberliga and Verbandsliga games of Baden-Würrtemberg, but if I prepare for some guy from further away in a tournament, then I've noticed differences between "Old database + TWIC" vs. the Chessbase online database with that kind of event.
  
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brabo
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Re: Green moves
Reply #2 - 08/30/13 at 05:19:36
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Since 2011, I've not bought anymore the latest databases from Chessbase. By just adding the latest twics for free I've not the feeling that I am missing something.
Accessing the net during a tournament isn't always easy. I don't have a smartphone or other device to wireless access the internet without mentioning that on these little screens it is difficult to read. Therefore I prefer to have all necessary data to prepare for a game on my laptop. Another requirement I want for my data is to have it as much as possible stored on 1 place accessible by 1 program.

I also have my strong doubts about how well ChessBase Opening Encyclopedia is edited. I've heard from a reseller that end of this year Houdini 4.0 would arrive with probably a new very strong openingbook so that could be interesting.
  
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dfan
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Re: Green moves
Reply #1 - 08/29/13 at 21:29:31
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If I understand the autotranslation of your article correctly, I just use a .ctg generated from the ChessBase Big Database (updated during the year) for this purpose. The downside is that it is not curated in any way, but I can often make up for that somewhat via ChessPublishing games, chesspub.com threads, and other searches on the net.

I don't know how well edited the ChessBase Opening Encyclopedia is but I agree that it is more money than I am interested in spending. Maybe the articles are really awesome and it is worth the price of three books, but I'd like to see the proof of that first.
  
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brabo
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Green moves
08/29/13 at 20:30:15
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The topic is close to what was discussed in the thread about openingbooks, 5 principles of design, see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1377304845 but is too different to put in the same thread.

What i mean exactly, can be read in my latest blogarticle: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/08/groene-zetten.html

Shortly summarizing: I am discussing/ searching for an openingsbook/tree which gives the most accurate and detailed overview of all existing openings while being offered in such way that it can be easily used for a gamepreparation in OTB.
  
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