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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 33577 times)
Bibs
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #136 - 03/08/14 at 06:30:20
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Generally, it would be helpful if members were to view discussions here as a way to collaboratively seek 'truth'. In a board game.
I have been a bit baffled by the confrontational aspect here, the unnecessarily brusque comments, as Keano noted.
This is no battle, this is not the Ok Corall.
Chill people, exchange opinions and ideas, work together to make progress. BladezII - perhaps you could ease up the tone a little.
Back to chess, ...c6 wasn't it...?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #135 - 03/08/14 at 03:24:35
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Edited:
I will delete posts that are only personal attacks. Members may send each other messages, you don't need to pollute the forums with personal attacks.
~SF March 7th, 2014


Added on March 7, 2014:

Edited:
If the personal attacks continue, this thread will be locked.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #134 - 03/06/14 at 00:42:51
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I stand corrected.

Black should indeed look to

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. exd5 exd5 5. Bd3 c6

6. Nge2 Nf6

Since this definitely looks better and "it should equalize".

IM Watson also responded to the discussion, he provides another line, outside of my ...f5 idea, which he likes for Black. It is in his most recent update.  It also looks good.

Kudos.

  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #133 - 03/06/14 at 00:26:55
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...OK lets look 58..Rd1 is even quicker:
(55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 58.Rxc4)

58...Rd1  59.Kb5 Ke6 60.Rc6+ Kd7 61.e6+ Ke7 62.Kc4 All over.
...

Edited:
Edited to remove personal attacks ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:50:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #132 - 03/06/14 at 00:13:29
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BladezII wrote on 03/06/14 at 00:06:35:
There is a problem with the line you gave.  I don’t know if you caught it.  I don’t think so.


55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5
58.Rxc4

58...Rd1 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.Kc4 a4 62.Ra3 Rc1+ 63.Kd3 Rd1+ 64.Ke4 Re1+ 65.Kf4 Rf1+ 66.Kg4 Rg1+ 67.Kf3 Rf1+ 68.Ke2 Rb1 69.Rxa4 Rb3

And White, again, is cut off.

You convinced yet ?  It’s just the internet .  ☺


Another try?
55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 58.Rxc4 Rb1+ 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.d5+ Kxe5 62.d6 Ke6 63.Kc6 Rd1 64.Re3+ Kf7 65.d7
Again all over.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #131 - 03/06/14 at 00:06:35
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There is a problem with the line you gave. 

55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5
58.Rxc4

58...Rd1 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.Kc4 a4 62.Ra3 Rc1+ 63.Kd3 Rd1+ 64.Ke4 Re1+ 65.Kf4 Rf1+ 66.Kg4 Rg1+ 67.Kf3 Rf1+ 68.Ke2 Rb1 69.Rxa4 Rb3

And White, again, is cut off.

Edited:
Edited to remove a personal attack ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:48:51 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #130 - 03/05/14 at 23:48:37
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...The position is lost. ...

The line you just gave there loses even easier:

54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rc5 Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 a6 58.Ra5!  Again Black can resign.



Edited:
Edited to remove a perceived personal attack. ~SF 3/7/14



« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:48:13 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #129 - 03/05/14 at 23:37:22
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Here is something out of the manual -


54.Kd2 Rg1

55.Rc5 Ke6

56.Kc3 Rc1+


57.Kb4 a6

[ Black is aiming to cut off the White king, something he will accomplished if White ever reaches the a file and Black cuts off the White king.  The same principle, again, applies here.  Let me show you, it’s not surprising and it is simple.  I am amazed you did not think about this.


58.Rxc4
White can do this but not place his king on the a - file.




58...Rb1+ 59.Kc3 Rc1+ 60.Kd3 Rd1+ 61.Ke3 (61.Ke2 Rg1) 61...Re1+   Repeating the position, again.

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Anything else ?
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #128 - 03/05/14 at 22:59:20
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eh? No like I said Rc5 is the idea, obviously Black can draw if White plays like an idiot.

Actually I'm pretty sure its winning now, had a chance to look at it today.

53.Ke3 Re1+ 54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rc5 Ke6 56.Kc3

White wins in all lines. Its not surprising really.

I'll bore you through the winning technique if you like, its straight out of the manuals:

56...Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 (all moves lose but I'll give this line as an illustration)
58.Rxc4 Rb1+ 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 Rb2 61.Kc4 Rb1 62.Kd3 Rd1+ 63.Ke3 Re1+ 64.Kd2 Ra1 65.Rc6+ Ke7 [65...Kd5 66.Rd6+ Ke4 67.e6 wins]
66.Kd3 a5 67.Ra6 and Black can resign.



  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #127 - 03/05/14 at 22:13:17
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Keano,

You should see and test this position out yourself.  It is easy.  Play the black side, perhaps you will appreciate what I am talking about in this position.

After

52 ...   Rd1  (forcing your king right back down to cover the pawns )

53.  Ke3  Re1+  and again, white is forced to back down and come back.

54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rd7+

[If white decides to try to make a run for it with his king, then simply ... 55.Ke3 Re1+

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And now white has to come back down again, and go no where.]

55...Ke6 56.Rd6+ Kf5 57.Rf6+ Ke4 58.Rd6

[If now White tries to push his pawns up, then the White King is cut-off.  I said all this in a few posts above, you should read it again.  The ideas are simple to see and equally simple to apply in OTB.]


58...Kf5 59.e6 Kf6 60.d5 Rg3

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[Sealing the White king from the pawns and Black now can more easily restrain them.]

61.Rd7 c3+ 62.Kc2 Re3 63.Rc7 Ke5 64.Rxc3 Re4 65.Rd3 Kd6
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[And now you should see this is absolutely even more obvious than before -  it is a dead draw.]

  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #126 - 03/05/14 at 00:55:00
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BladezII wrote on 03/05/14 at 00:34:37:
Did it sink in by just what you saw, that this is easily drawn?  Did you see White is tied down and he cannot walk away ?

This is easy for Black to see, even in OTB.


You're a better man than me then, like I said I am just being honest I would love to play White. If you say it is drawn and you have analysed everything I believe you.

After 52...Rd1 I play 53.Ke3 followed by Rc5. Looks very convincing to me. But obviously I am just missing something.

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« Last Edit: 03/05/14 at 08:53:01 by Keano »  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #125 - 03/05/14 at 00:34:37
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Did it sink in by just what you saw, that this is easily drawn?  Did you see White is tied down and he cannot walk away ?

This is easy for Black to see, even in OTB.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #124 - 03/05/14 at 00:08:04
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going on my human evaluation on this one, I'd be delighted to get that endgame - if you tell me it is drawn I believe you, but I have to be honest, I'd be delighted with that ending and pretty confident.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #123 - 03/04/14 at 23:45:10
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after

52.Kf4  then

52...  Rd1

and your king is coming right back down, and the rest of the line follows that idea throughout many branches. 
White is tied down.

Don't even bother with the program's evaluation.  The fact is there, and it is glaring.   White is tied down to the pawns, and the black king menaces the pawns, and in the mean time, Black's pawns are still mobile.

Why do I get the feeling some people think one side has the advantage based on what the program evaluates ?   I have seen enough times programs evaluating 1.00 +  but it ends up repeating a patter of moves which lead nowhere but round about in a circle and repeating positions.

This is one of those cases.  The truths are there, and I smile when I see these things.  Humans, for the most part still are the best evaluators of positions.

« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:46:28 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #122 - 03/04/14 at 23:22:13
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If you say you have it analysed to move 60-63 I'll take your word for it, looks very dodgy to my eye after 52.Kf4

I'd be delighted to get that endgame.
  
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