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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 34920 times)
BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #121 - 03/04/14 at 22:57:57
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51... Rd3

And Black ties up the White rook to the d-pawn while retaining pawn mobility.  And if the White king comes any close to the c-pawn, he runs the risk of being cut-off from the center pawn and the Black king stops them with the black rook.

I got this line analyzed to moves 60-63.  It goes no where.

Anything else ?

Edited:
Edited to remove inflammatory speech ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:45:15 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #120 - 03/04/14 at 21:08:40
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oof - that last line is coming mighty close mind.
What about  47.Rxg6 Rxc3 48.Rd6 Rxg3+ 49.Kxf5 Rf3+ 50.Kg4 Rxa3 51.Rxd5

I'd fancy my two passers there.

  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #119 - 03/04/14 at 20:26:46
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I did not include Rb1 because a4 seemed stronger and more ambitious.

The line after Rb1, which I have analyzed before, seems to lead straight to a drawn endgame.

But it makes sense for you to go Rb1 since it is already shown that the other option goes no where.

Again, white has no slight edge since Black immediately gets counter play on the queen side and White seems forced (if he gets too ambitious ) to take a draw by repetition.   For example -

37.Ke3 Rb6 38.Rb1

38...  Kg7 39.Kf4 Kh6 40.Rh1+ Kg7 41.bxc4 bxc4 42.Kg5 Rb2 43.Rb1 Rxc2 44.Rb7 Kf7 45.Rxd7+ Ke6 46.Rd6+ Kf7 47.Rxd5 Rxc3 48.Rd7+ Ke6 49.Rd6+ Kf7 50.Rd7+ Ke6 51.Rd6+ Kf7

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White seems forced to draw here by repetition since Black is ready to clean up the pawns and queen his own pawn.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #118 - 03/04/14 at 19:49:38
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I thought 37.Ke3 was new in that line for some reason. I must have been mistaken I see you give 37...Rb6 instead of 37...Rc6. Apologies.

After 37...Rb6 I'd probably go 38.Rb1 trying to angle for a similar structure as the line I gave earlier if possible.

I think White is slightly better and you presumably think Black is equal. Lets leave it at that!
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #117 - 03/04/14 at 18:45:08
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Keano,

Also, I have indeed covered the 33.fxe5 already.   Pay close attention to the posts above and you will find that line was already covered in detail.

Cheers, and there is nothing personal.  This is just a discussion.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #116 - 03/04/14 at 18:24:04
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Bladez try not to take it personal. Its only a chess position!

It is my firm opinion that White is better here, an opinion based on my personal experience and intuition, and what little analysis I have done. Because after all we have barely scratched the surface here.

If you disagree with that then fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion. I accept that you feel strongly for Black's cause, and I can respect that.

To sum up, lets just agree to disagree.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #115 - 03/04/14 at 18:02:56
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Keano wrote on 03/04/14 at 09:56:47:
No doubt a comp could defend it, but I'd fancy my chances there against a human opponent.

If White prefers not to sacrifice anything he can go for the other line:
33.fxe5 Rh7 34.Rh1 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.b3 b5 37.Ke3! Rc6 38.bxc4 Rxc4 39.Kd2 Rc7 40.Bd1 Be6 41.Bf3 White is better in the endgame.
41...Rh7 swapping rooks here leads to a lost endgame, this illustrates the possibilities:
42.Rxh7 Kxh7 43.Kc2 g5 44.Kb3 a5 45.a4 bxa4+ 46.Kxa4 Kg6 47.Kxa5 White wins

The beauty is he has so many promising lines to choose from. In fact the more we look the more I think it may be even more than just a slight edge, but in any case White should be happy with a slight edge that is safe as the result of any opening.



You say that as to infer we should be naive to believe White has not been using a comp to play the white side in this discussion.

What I have shown is the ideas.  Once you play the ideas out, like you would even from an opening book, you start remembering the ideas too.

White has been using a comp too, AND, it has been clear that White has had to defend many times, and yes, playing with a comp as white is "easy", just to make sure he does not get horribly tied down, and yet, in some lines, even with the help of a comp, he does get tied down, I have shown that already.

There has been nothing nowhere, not in all the lines I have challenged, where White ends up better, a computer evaluations is not precise, but I have shown that too.  In face I have seen that a lot while going over these lines.

I will check if I have not covered the fxe5 line already.

But so far all the doors keep closing on white, and you are running out of options.  But you keep believing white is better.  If White was truly better, the doors should be closing on Black at that rate, but not the other way around.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #114 - 03/04/14 at 09:56:47
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No doubt a comp could defend it, but I'd fancy my chances there against a human opponent.

If White prefers not to sacrifice anything he can go for the other line:
33.fxe5 Rh7 34.Rh1 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.b3 b5 37.Ke3! Rc6 38.bxc4 Rxc4 39.Kd2 Rc7 40.Bd1 Be6 41.Bf3 White is better in the endgame.
41...Rh7 swapping rooks here leads to a lost endgame, this illustrates the possibilities:
42.Rxh7 Kxh7 43.Kc2 g5 44.Kb3 a5 45.a4 bxa4+ 46.Kxa4 Kg6 47.Kxa5 White wins

The beauty is he has so many promising lines to choose from. In fact the more we look the more I think it may be even more than just a slight edge, but in any case White should be happy with a slight edge that is safe as the result of any opening.
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #113 - 03/04/14 at 08:28:30
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Keano wrote on 03/04/14 at 07:39:03:
After 33...Bc6 the idea was 34.Rh1!? to sacrifice the exchange for two connected passers if Black plays ...d4. That looked dangerous to me at first sight.
33...Bc6 34.Rh1 d4 35.cxd4 Bxh1 36.Rxh1 Rd8 37.Kc3

If Black doesn't take the exchange White will just be better, so that looks critical.

Needs to be checked if this is working but certainly looks excellent practical chances. Otherwise I'll check the fxe5 line. The great thing for White is he has so much choice of lines which all lead to a slight edge.



I ran that end game.  I just did not provide the whole line of it.  White runs into a wall there too because the black rooks will infiltrate on the h file and on the c file.  The black king will also just blockade the pawn break. 

Smiley 

Did anyone mention the ... c6 followed by ...Nf6 idea ? 

  

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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #112 - 03/04/14 at 07:39:03
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After 33...Bc6 the idea was 34.Rh1!? to sacrifice the exchange for two connected passers if Black plays ...d4. That looked dangerous to me at first sight.
33...Bc6 34.Rh1 d4 35.cxd4 Bxh1 36.Rxh1 Rd8 37.Kc3

If Black doesn't take the exchange White will just be better, so that looks critical.

Needs to be checked if this is working but certainly looks excellent practical chances. Otherwise I'll check the fxe5 line. The great thing for White is he has so much choice of lines which all lead to a slight edge.

  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #111 - 03/03/14 at 21:18:42
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Are you saying white keeps an edge after the recapture with the d-pawn now ?

Can you show it ?

The only one providing lines here is me.  You are mostly providing words.

What are you intending ?

if White takes with the d-pawn then

33...   Bc6

and now white has to deal with Black's d-pawn break or an advance on the queenside by Black, or Black invading on the h-file if White does not challenge  Black down the h-file.  White's bishop is even more limited in movement and does not seem able to do much now.

Handshake. 

I think I am done here.  It was a great discussion, Keano. 

Looking back through all the posts, I noticed no one brought up the line

5...    c6 
6. Nge2   Nf6

Which is another great line in the 5... c6 variation.  Anyone has any thoughts on that ?
  

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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #110 - 03/03/14 at 20:28:12
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hmmmmm. after 32...Nxe5 I think I'd ideally like to recapture 33.dxe5 in that position - opens up the d4 square and exposes the d5 pawn more. What were you intending there?
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #109 - 03/03/14 at 19:29:00
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29.Ke2 c5 30.c3 g6
31.Kd2  c4

32.Bc2 This is your new proposal.   OK, here we go -

32...   Nxe5

33.fxe5 Rh7
34.Rh1 Rxh1
35.Rxh1 Re6
36.b3 b5

[Active play and Black seeking his on break on the queenside is key.]

37.Ke3 Rb6 38.a4 bxa4 39.bxc4 Rb2 40.Bd3 Be6 41.cxd5 Bxd5 42.Ra1 Ra2 43.Rg1 Ra3 44.g4 Rxc3 45.Kd2 Rb3 46.gxf5 a3 47.Bc2 Rb4

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[White is tied down by Black, who's pawn is perhaps more dangerous than White's.]

This was never a correspondence game.  Your opponent will never send you 10-18 moves and will not send 2-3 different variations just in case you go here or there.  He won't even show you where you should go.  This is a discussion.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #108 - 03/03/14 at 18:32:54
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I think the Bishop belongs on c2 to shut down the counterplay possibility on the b2 pawn by Rb1,b3 etc, similar to a line I posted earlier.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #107 - 03/03/14 at 18:14:06
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Keano wrote on 03/03/14 at 09:48:20:
OK I'll look at your main move 30...g6

Then I go 31.Kd2 c4 32.Bc2 again with a slight advantage.

You can let me know what you intend, but as I said this is in danger of turning into a correspondence game. All that really interests me is if White is better or not, which is clear enough to me, if Black can hold an endgame in 40 or 45 moves with correct play should not really be surprising, but it will be another thing to replicate this over the board.



Black is not just holding.  White also has to play accurately, not just to try to be on top, Black's position is dynamic, and he can put white on the ropes quickly.

I will look. I have covered that line, but not with Bc2.  I will post shortly.

Also, we both know engines are used here, and in OTB, Black's position is like a spring which can, at any point, pop and the effect can be hard for White.  In OTB you will not have an engine like you do now, that is the case for both sides.  As is the case when engines are used, in a perfect game, black can hope to draw.  I am sure Black will not be playing vs a perfect game in OTB.  Keep that in mind.

I have shown and shut down the door on just anything you have thrown.  You are running out of more options as time goes on.  I can see the horizon effect already.
  

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