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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed Catalan (E08) theory (Read 8351 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #21 - 04/09/14 at 13:50:39
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This thread encouraged me to do a Catalan update! I tend to agree that Black is doing fine in the Closed Catalan if he knows what he is doing. Wink
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #20 - 03/03/14 at 10:56:51
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Yes, sure. We totally agree on that.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #19 - 03/02/14 at 08:14:03
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/02/14 at 07:52:21:
Fair enough. But don't forget that for this game Leko said in his interview afterwards that he remembered that in his analysis there was another main line but during his game he played a bishop move which was the second choice but over the board he was able to recollect easier his analysis and understand the position in general. So, objectively he thinks that there is a better solution for Black even there. But i could agree that in general this is not the most encouraging position to defend with Black!


There is a deviation for White, before the point in the Leko game you're referring to, that I prefer.

I play the line with both colors, and don't believe any kind of objective += is possible, but I do believe White can pose Black problems on the way to obtaining the half point.

That's all you can ask for against critical variations these days.
  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #18 - 03/02/14 at 07:52:21
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Fair enough. But don't forget that for this game Leko said in his interview afterwards that he remembered that in his analysis there was another main line but during his game he played a bishop move which was the second choice but over the board he was able to recollect easier his analysis and understand the position in general. So, objectively he thinks that there is a better solution for Black even there. But i could agree that in general this is not the most encouraging position to defend with Black!
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #17 - 03/01/14 at 16:58:21
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/01/14 at 13:26:44:
Marin calls it a Catalan-6B474F5E4B4445435E45592A01 in one of his CBM articles, but i thought that Leko neutralised this line as an attempt for an advantage some time ago? (against a Chinese player i seems to recall...?)


I know the game you are referring to, and don't believe it is the final word for the variation.
« Last Edit: 03/01/14 at 18:50:52 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #16 - 03/01/14 at 13:26:44
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Marin calls it a Catalan-QID in one of his CBM articles, but i thought that Leko neutralised this line as an attempt for an advantage some time ago? (against a Chinese player i seems to recall...?)
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #15 - 02/28/14 at 20:00:45
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TalJechin wrote on 02/28/14 at 19:52:52:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/28/14 at 18:51:34:
10.b3 is a move there. 10...Ba6 11.a4 is what I am referring to, and has been covered by Marin, Avrukh, and so on. 10...Bb7 just runs into 11.Nc3. 10...a5 is possible and scores well, but isn't a big deal.


Scherbakov mentions that 10.b3 transposes to a 617342564F50464D2303 and gives the example van Wely-Leko, Istanbul 2000 commented by Emms in the Nimzo & Benoni section. So, checking 617342564F50464D2303 theory could be another source to explore the Catalan...

Still, in that van Wely game, white plays Bf4 on move 11 instead, so is it then a Catalan again?!  Undecided


It isn't a QID until 10. b3 Ba6, at which point whether you call it a Catalan or a QID is moot. I think of it as a Catalan given that's the only way I reach the position as White or Black, because I am partial to the 5.b3 b5 QID (5...Bb4+, of course, being how you'd get it via the QID move order).
  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #14 - 02/28/14 at 19:52:52
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/28/14 at 18:51:34:
10.b3 is a move there. 10...Ba6 11.a4 is what I am referring to, and has been covered by Marin, Avrukh, and so on. 10...Bb7 just runs into 11.Nc3. 10...a5 is possible and scores well, but isn't a big deal.


Scherbakov mentions that 10.b3 transposes to a QID and gives the example van Wely-Leko, Istanbul 2000 commented by Emms in the Nimzo & Benoni section. So, checking QID theory could be another source to explore the Catalan...

Still, in that van Wely game, white plays Bf4 on move 11 instead, so is it then a Catalan again?!  Undecided
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #13 - 02/28/14 at 18:51:34
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10.b3 is a move there. 10...Ba6 11.a4 is what I am referring to, and has been covered by Marin, Avrukh, and so on. 10...Bb7 just runs into 11.Nc3. 10...a5 is possible and scores well, but can be met well enough by 11.Bc3 intending 12.Nbd2. There's an important (temporary) pawn sacrifice there, but Black remains under some pressure all the same.

Which is the story of the Catalan's entire existence - some pressure, quite often not enough to drown Black. Grin
  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #12 - 02/28/14 at 18:39:22
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"Basically. I have never, ever liked Bf4 in the Closed Catalan even back then. As for a4-a5, the only remaining plan against ...b6/...Ba6... If Black gives you a move for free (Bd2), you might as well use it."

  Could you give some examples of lines with your suggested a4-a5 plan?
  I also reviewed deeply GM Scherbakov's lines with 8 Qc2, b6; 9 Rd1, Nbd7; 10 Bf4 (the only move given) and see nothing for W.
  My disappointment with this line in the "Catalan5" section of the 6/2013 survey contrasts with my results in the Catalan 1-4 sections, where I was always able to find at least some edge for White, although sometimes rather minimal.
  If White wants to avoid this line in the Catalan, how should he play?
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #11 - 02/28/14 at 17:18:11
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/28/14 at 17:14:01:
Hey Bryan, didn't we reach more or less the same conclusion of these lines back in 2003?  I feel old, but it's funny how opening theory goes.  You can look more deeply and more broadly, but the conclusion is often the same.


Basically. I have never, ever liked Bf4 in the Closed Catalan even back then. I feel theory has validated this as time has rolled on. The argument that it was better than Rd1 because of a Classical Stonewall, of all things, was not convincing back then or today.

As for a4-a5, the only remaining plan against ...b6/...Ba6... If Black gives you a move for free (Bd2), you might as well use it.

As someone that plays both sides, I think Black suffers some there. Even if Black draws in the end, he can do that regardless of what first move White chooses. The hunt for a += that can be reliably converted to 1-0 in all critical continuations is akin to the search for the Fountain of Youth.
  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #10 - 02/28/14 at 17:14:01
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Hey Bryan, didn't we reach more or less the same conclusion of these lines back in 2003?  I feel old, but it's funny how opening theory goes.  You can look more deeply and more broadly, but the conclusion is often the same.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #9 - 02/28/14 at 17:06:14
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From my own study of the issue:

Anything involving Bf4 is equal.

White can play Rd1 regardless of if Black has that "improved Stonewall" available (ie: has not played ...b6 early, but rather ...Nbd7 and ...c6), because it isn't a problem.

The a4 continuations, trying to make use of the Bd2, are not as equal as correspondence games would lead you to believe based on the number of draws Black has achieved. I have been consistently underwhelmed by White's play there; too much engine reliance by the first player, not enough purposeful planning in move selection.

No thanks to 5.Nbd2.
  

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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #8 - 02/28/14 at 11:39:55
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tony37 wrote on 02/28/14 at 11:08:55:
it can't be worse than 5.Bd2, so yes, why not? I admit I haven't looked at it in detail yet (or if I did, I can't find notes on it)


It's one of those big mysteries of life to me, up there with why all White repertoire books suggest 4.Bd2 against the Bogo when a century of Master practice has confirmed that 4.Nbd2 is best, the key to decrypting the Beale Cyphers, how far the East is from the West, the identity of the Babushka Woman, why when I've lost something it's always in the last place I look, what really happened to the Holy Prepu--nevermind.  But you get the idea. 
  
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Re: Closed Catalan (E08) theory
Reply #7 - 02/28/14 at 11:08:55
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/28/14 at 02:11:58:
The 8.Bf4 line has long been thought equal.  Of course in your first game White can also play 11.Ne5, but...

I think White should avoid this, i.e. I have no idea why so many people ignore blocking the check with the knight, 5.Nbd2.  Maybe that's equal too though, I dunno.

it can't be worse than 5.Bd2, so yes, why not? I admit I haven't looked at it in detail yet (or if I did, I can't find notes on it)
  
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