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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. d4 c6!? (Read 3686 times)
tracke
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #20 - 03/05/14 at 12:40:14
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One black idea with 1 d4 c6!? might be to avoid pseudo-trompowsky lines without an early Nf3 by white ?!
Black agrees to play 1 d4 c6 2 Nf3 d5 3 Bg5 h6 4 Bh4 but not to play 1 d5 d5 2 Bg5 h6 3 Bh4 c6 4 e3 .
1 d4 c6 2 Bg5 Qa5+ is probably equal (and dull).

tracke Smiley
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #19 - 03/05/14 at 12:28:14
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I never considered using 1...c6 to get a Dutch; on first thought I like the idea, because 2.Nf3 will be met with 2...f5, though I'd have to check it to see what other issues it might have.  So maybe for Caro/Dutch players, this is a good move order. 

I strongly dislike it for Slav/Caro players, as already mentioned.
  
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MartinC
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #18 - 03/05/14 at 10:44:36
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Well there is always 2 c4/e4 Na6 too Wink
  
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gwnn
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #17 - 03/05/14 at 10:39:12
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I thought the only reason you'd like to play c6 is to follow up with 2 c4 b5?! Smiley I know that's not your intention but someone had to mention that line.
  
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TD
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #16 - 03/03/14 at 16:52:03
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I like to play the Leningrader Dutch sometimes but hate Anti-Dutch stuff. Previously I played 1.d4 d6, but now I have used 1.d4 c6 a couple of times because I also play Slav and Caro-Kann.
If I want Slav I mix between 1.d4 d5 and 1.d4 c6 depending on my mood, the occasion and if I do or don't know my opponents repertoire.
  
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TD
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #15 - 03/03/14 at 16:43:43
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/03/14 at 15:52:46:
In my experience, when white plays 1.d4 c6, he won't play 2.e4. Generally, only players above a certain level (perhaps 2300 FIDE) will willingly go into the Caro-Kann when Black is begging for it. The Caro-Kann isn't that fearsome, but it does require a specific mindset.

When I play 1.d4 d6 I mostly get 2.e4, and when I play 1.d4 c6 I almost never get 2.e4.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #14 - 03/03/14 at 15:52:46
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In my experience, when white plays 1.d4 c6, he won't play 2.e4. Generally, only players above a certain level (perhaps 2300 FIDE) will willingly go into the Caro-Kann when Black is begging for it. The Caro-Kann isn't that fearsome, but it does require a specific mindset.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #13 - 03/03/14 at 10:45:07
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/03/14 at 10:14:30:
So: 1...c6 limits your options against all of the d-pawn specials and doesn't limit White's options at all (that I can see).  You aren't avoiding any particular line of the Slav that might be dangerous, you're just committing your c-pawn earlier than necessary and telling White what you aren't going to play.


Well, as I've mentioned some years ago, there actually is an IM who regularly plays the Dutch via 1...c6 and 2...f5, so if White relies on the Staunton, 2.Bg5 etc he might want to play 2.e4. Some players would agonise over such matter, but I bet 90% would just play into whatever they usually play.

There are many Whites who sigh at the mere though of a Slav so 1...c6 may well induce more Caros for the second player. He just needs to find set-ups he's comfortable with against the d4-specials - if there are any.

One could compare with 1.c4 c6 where Black gives up options like 1...e5 and 1...c5, and still allows 2.e4 and 2.Nf3 when d4 may or may not be played later. The d4 Specials are avoided so it's a good move order for those who must play a Caro/Slav or experience withdrawal symptoms!  Grin
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #12 - 03/03/14 at 10:14:30
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Well, in the US at least, our games don't make it into the databases; 5 of mine are in Megabase 2014, one from 11 years ago and four from 13 years ago.  So preparation for individual players is much different (non-existent, really), unless you're club mates and happen to know what they play.

I agree that there's nothing in theory wrong with 1...c6 or 1...Nf6, but in practice you're giving White a lot more choice and getting nothing in return.  He knows that you aren't going to play the Noteboom (via the 1...Nf6 order), he knows that you aren't playing any of those other lines (Baltic, Albin, Chigorin, QGA, QGD, Tarrasch) after the 1...c6 move order.  After 1...c6 you're committed to those lines via the d-pawn "specials," and after 1...Nf6 you've opened yourself up to the Trompowsky for no reason. 

I guess after 1.d4 c6 White might wonder that you'll play some kind of Modern/Pirc/Gurgenidze system, but of course he had to wonder the same thing before your first move showed up on the board.  And I doubt that 1...c6 will cause him any concern, he'll just play 2.c4 (or 2.e4 if he's OK with a Caro) intending to meet 2...d6 with 3.e4 g6 for instance.  That's no problem for White, who would have had the same thing after 1.d4 g6. 

So: 1...c6 limits your options against all of the d-pawn specials and doesn't limit White's options at all (that I can see).  You aren't avoiding any particular line of the Slav that might be dangerous, you're just committing your c-pawn earlier than necessary and telling White what you aren't going to play.
  
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #11 - 03/03/14 at 10:09:41
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I tried this for a short period. the only issue I found was against d4 d5 aleternative lines not including c4. The game that made me realise it was more trouble than the worth of it was when my opponent played a Torre set-up. Similarly, choices aginst the London would be limited with c5 rulled out.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #10 - 03/03/14 at 09:40:13
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/02/14 at 23:12:57:
TalJechin wrote on 03/02/14 at 17:13:16:
The only downside I can think of, is that it limits Black's choice vs the different d4-systems, London, Colle, Colle-Zukertort, Veresov etc. Not sure how much of a problem that is though...


It's even worse than that (even if only slightly).  It limits your options against main line 1.d4 and 2.c4 stuff, and you've given White more information than you needed to.  He knows  that you aren't going to play the Queen's Gambit Declined, The Albin, the Chigorin, or the Queen's Gambit Accepted, for instance.  Maybe after 1.d4 d5 he would usually play 2.Nf3 to avoid some of those sidelines, but now that he knows you aren't playing them he might try 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3.  Not that it's any worse theoretically than the 1...d5 move order, but you've given White more power/choice over the opening than you otherwise would have.

It's not as bad as 1...Nf6, 2...c6, 3...d5, which we had a thread about, but I don't see any advantages of the move, only practical disadvantages (if not theoretical ones).


Usually people will have checked you in the database, and if they see that you only play the Slav and Caro, they won't worry about those empty threats anyway.

If they haven't checked you out then 1...c6 could be the start of a Modern/Pirc/Old Indian or even a Dutch after 2...f5 or something eccentric like 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Qa5+. Most people wouldn't worry anyway, but play their choice of 2.c4, 2.Nf3 or 2.e4.

The main point of 1...c6 is that Black would prefer a Caro-Kann and some players will probably oblige as they may prefer it to a Slav...

Personally, I don't see a problem with playing 1...Nf6 2...c6 and 3...d5 either. For one thing it gives Black the chance to face the Trompowsky and if White doesn't play 2/3.c4 then he might want to play something else, rather than face a London. It depends on the taste, skill and knowledge of the player.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #9 - 03/02/14 at 23:12:57
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TalJechin wrote on 03/02/14 at 17:13:16:
The only downside I can think of, is that it limits Black's choice vs the different d4-systems, London, Colle, Colle-Zukertort, Veresov etc. Not sure how much of a problem that is though...


It's even worse than that (even if only slightly).  It limits your options against main line 1.d4 and 2.c4 stuff, and you've given White more information than you needed to.  He knows  that you aren't going to play the Queen's Gambit Declined, The Albin, the Chigorin, or the Queen's Gambit Accepted, for instance.  Maybe after 1.d4 d5 he would usually play 2.Nf3 to avoid some of those sidelines, but now that he knows you aren't playing them he might try 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3.  Not that it's any worse theoretically than the 1...d5 move order, but you've given White more power/choice over the opening than you otherwise would have.

It's not as bad as 1...Nf6, 2...c6, 3...d5, which we had a thread about, but I don't see any advantages of the move, only practical disadvantages (if not theoretical ones).
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #8 - 03/02/14 at 21:56:30
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Smiley
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #7 - 03/02/14 at 21:49:43
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I see that Rene has precisely the same reaction I did, and he was a bit faster!
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 1. d4 c6!?
Reply #6 - 03/02/14 at 21:48:38
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If you have the Slav and Caro-Kann as your main repertoire choices, I don't see the benefit of playing 1.d4 c6 over 1...d5.

I don't see that there's much to worry about, but this seems like an over-refinement for no clear purpose.
  
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