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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings (Read 30033 times)
GabrielGale
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #65 - 03/04/15 at 23:11:24
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Instead of creating a new thread, I would like to resuscitate this thread to point to an article published on ChessCafe (https://chesscafe.com/features/the-skittles-room/) [I am not sure how long it will remain accessible before disappearing behind paywall which is what ChessCafe has become.]

Briefly, the article was written due to complaints received from Edward Winter (noted chess historian and scourge of copyright violaters and plagiarists worldwide) of a video taken from Youtube which ChessCafe re-posted on their site under their "Video Spotlight" column.

I was alerted to this by a tweet from Macauley Peterson and re-tweeted by Mark Crowther.
Quote:
Macauley Peterson @Macauley64  ·  Mar 3
Great column from Mark Donlan @ChessEdu on fair use & copyright. Must read for all chess journalists & editors: https://chesscafe.com/the-skittles-r


I have to say that I am disappointed by the article and by the "blind" recommendation from Macauley and Mark.

Again, there are some serious misunderstandings about copyright and the distinction from plagiarism, which boundaries are blurred in the article.

1) The author cites the US doctrine of "fair use" but this is a specific doctrine which is not necessarily applied nor adopted elsewhere in the world. The US is not the Internet nor the world. For example, Australia has not adopted fair use and our equivalent is much more restrictive of what you can use "fairly".
PS, the "apology" from the original Youtube video creator is very underwhelming to say the least!
2) There is this remarkable passage:
Quote:
Yet, the material in question is likely not under copyright protection to begin with, so is this fair use, infringement, or just a case of ethics and a failure to respect journalistic integrity. Is non-copyrighted material posted on an Internet website simply free for the taking without permission or accreditation?

??? It was acknowledged that Edward Winter spent considerable time, effort and possibly money to acquire certain images which he duly "published" on his website. IMHO That "publication" gives rise to a new copyright in that particular image!
This is similar to novels which come into public domain. Publishers "rush" to get their edited versions into the market. They cannot stop anyone from publishing their edited version BUT they can certainly stop anyone from "copying" their published edited version.

3) In following passage, no distinction is made between copyright violation and plagiarism:
Quote:
Beyond borrowing of material there are many examples of clear-cut plagiarism, which is also rampant in the chess world both in print and especially on the Internet. Edward Winter devoted an entire essay to the issue in “Copying.”


IMHO, Publishers, Authors, Editors, Journalists, and ordinary chess players should be wary of this "supposedly Great column ..... on fair use & copyright", no it is not!!!

PS, my apologies to Stefan, I realised I never did post back on my findings on copyright. Sorry, that research got derailed. I was mainly looking at copyright of chess analyses and not so much on copyright of games.
  

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brabo
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #64 - 05/19/14 at 18:55:34
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My latest blogarticle is about manuals: http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/05/manuals.html
Books purely written on how to do something in a quick efficient way while not caring at all about history. Something like a manual for learning a new language, for using the remote control, your smartphone,...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #63 - 05/09/14 at 10:26:46
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brabo wrote on 05/09/14 at 08:35:53:
We can clearly see there are 2 camps. People believing history should be covered in a good openingbook and people disregarding history in favor of extra variations of high quality analysis.

It is only one camp - the authors working in the right way, who do research their topics and credit their sources -, plus the occasional cases of starting authors who don't know (yet) how to do it.

Accelerated Dragons by Donaldson/Silman, London 1998, was regarded as a milestone for this opening. It earned raving reviews when it came out. Above the bibliography of that work, p.6, you can read the following acknowledgement:

Quote:
The authors would like to thank the staff of the John G. White collection of the Cleveland Public Library for their assistance, in particular Dr Loranth and Dr Reese.


The book was listed in the bibliography of Accelerated Dragon, London 1998, by Peter Heine Nielsen/Carsten Hansen. That's what you'd expect. After Donaldson/Silman have put so much work in their own work, it would have been quite a shock for these two authors to find their book ignored.

How can an author expect that his book is duly quoted from other authors in the future, if he doesn't care about studying works of authors who came before him?
  
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brabo
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #62 - 05/09/14 at 08:35:53
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Today a similar critic about lack of historical references was done on chessvibes for the DVD of Robert Ris on the subject: Two Knight opening.
http://www.chessvibes.com/?q=review-a-random-selection-of-recent-chess-publicati...

We can clearly see there are 2 camps. People believing history should be covered in a good openingbook and people disregarding history in favor of extra variations of high quality analysis.
  
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fling
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #61 - 03/18/14 at 18:07:27
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/09/14 at 16:24:42:
I may not agree with everything you said, but I certainly respect your views.

Quote:
That critical question is copyright issues.


Actually, I don't think this is the critical question at all.  It frankly doesn't matter whether lifting someone else's analysis is a copyright violation or not.  We can all agree that it is wrong to do that, can't we?  To me, the critical question here is whether that is what happened.


And I don't completely agree with you of course  Grin

I fully agree that it isn't a copyright issue, I got it wrong and my later posts explained that. But I still think that claiming something a novelty, using what looks like analysis from a source you were given by a known author, leaves you open to fair criticism no matter what the issue really is about...

Regarding checking sources, yes, it is hard to check everything, but it is just an explanation of why you missed something, not an excuse. There are examples of nobel prize laureates that should not have been, and vice versa. But in general, the prize is pretty strictly accredited to the scientists that were first with the idea, not the ones that popularized it etc.

Furthermore, as I stated before, I don't have a super database and I still see many games that have been played quite some time before publication date of QC books, meaning that those N's really aren't novelties by their definition in the books.

Lastly, I still like the books very much, but I much more like when credit is given to whomever it should be given to. That is just proper respect for work people has spent on something. And yes, I know it is hard, I do have a Ph D in Immunology. At least I read over 2,000 publications just before preparing my thesis, but still could have read much more...
  
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fling
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #60 - 03/18/14 at 17:56:02
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TonyRo wrote on 03/10/14 at 18:00:54:
I agree. For my book, I've consulted every source I can think of, but between books, DVDs, databases, and random things on the internet of all kinds, there's no doubt I missed some on something as broad and deep as the Sicilian Defense. The same would go for nearly any established opening at this point. Stuff is going to slip through the cracks. How much really depends on the author's familiarity with the materials in question and diligence.

Even if you manage to track down all of the sources, parsing through all of that information is still challenging!


Tony, what you have done is what most people expect. That would be ok in my opinion. But that is not what was stated to begin with, as I interpreted the situation at least.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #59 - 03/11/14 at 18:46:55
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LGXIII wrote on 03/11/14 at 15:44:29:
Volcanor wrote on 03/11/14 at 12:41:09:
I agree with LGXIII. Nevertheless, I think that including a sentence such as "I (We) would like to thank Stefan Bruecker for sending me (us) issues of Kaissiber free of charge." in the acknowledgment section would have been appropriate. While it certainly wasn't intentionally omitted, I can understand some of the initial complaints of Bruecker as a result.


Indeed, this would have been a good point and hopefully considered in a reprint in spite of the fuss !


Well, if they do I hope they proofread it first!  Grin
« Last Edit: 03/12/14 at 09:27:10 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #58 - 03/11/14 at 15:44:29
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Volcanor wrote on 03/11/14 at 12:41:09:
I agree with LGXIII. Nevertheless, I think that including a sentence such as "I (We) would like to thank Stefan Bruecker for sending me (us) issues of Kaissiber free of charge." in the acknowledgment section would have been appropriate. While it certainly wasn't intentionally omitted, I can understand some of the initial complaints of Bruecker as a result.


Indeed, this would have been a good point and hopefully considered in a reprint in spite of the fuss !
  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #57 - 03/11/14 at 15:41:52
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brabo wrote on 03/11/14 at 13:43:18:
LGXIII wrote on 03/11/14 at 11:07:27:
*edit*, about the TN part of the discussion I think that brabo has a point, the sense of TN cannot be the same as it used to be anyway.

That is not exactly what i wanted to say. I just indicate that both views (the traditional and the modern way) are making sense to me. It is a choice. Personally I always do my best & reasonable effort to find out if some idea was played/mentioned before and give proper accreditation (even if purely for own historical reference).


Hi Brabo,

Yes, I kind of 'short-circuited' the thing, trying to rectify : "about the TN part of the discussion I think that brabo has a point, and in my opinion the signification Smiley of TN cannot be the same as it used to be anyway"
  
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brabo
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #56 - 03/11/14 at 13:43:18
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LGXIII wrote on 03/11/14 at 11:07:27:
*edit*, about the TN part of the discussion I think that brabo has a point, the sense of TN cannot be the same as it used to be anyway.

That is not exactly what i wanted to say. I just indicate that both views (the traditional and the modern way) are making sense to me. It is a choice. Personally I always do my best & reasonable effort to find out if some idea was played/mentioned before and give proper accreditation (even if purely for own historical reference).
  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #55 - 03/11/14 at 12:41:09
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I agree with LGXIII. Nevertheless, I think that including a sentence such as "I (We) would like to thank Stefan Bruecker for sending me (us) issues of Kaissiber free of charge." in the acknowledgment section would have been appropriate. While it certainly wasn't intentionally omitted, I can understand some of the initial complaints of Bruecker as a result.
  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #54 - 03/11/14 at 11:07:27
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Hello All,

First of all, I would like to mention that I own the discussed book.

I have read both the initial thread in the poll and here, and to make a long story short, my feeling is that the reaction is out of proportion.

I recall reading at various places in the book references/credits/acknowledgements to the forum here and a couple of its illustrious contributors, therefore it was clear - at least to my eyes - that the analysis presented in the book will be built upon existing work and improved there and there or given a different angle (including words in between the chess moves)...

Sometimes evaluations given by some are challenged and it seems reasonable where one sees an unclear position another might see a "+/=" or whatever...

Overall in the book, we are far from cases of copy-pasting someone else's analysis.

I would say that already sufficient credit had been given where it should be.

Compare this with the fate of the true inventor of the phone whose name is buried in a footnote of history whereas in this major work contributing to a fundamental breakthrough in the world of the king's gambit chess players contributors names are printed in several occurrences...

Cheers,

*edit*, about the TN part of the discussion I think that brabo has a point, the sense of TN cannot be the same as it used to be anyway.

Personally, I do not buy books for the TNs but the overall content/lines/quality of the work and I suppose that a competitive player i.e >=2300 (not me) has the duty to do his own work and find his own TNs...

I scout regularly the used books sites to get old editions for my own work on my lines.

In the end, if it is unbearable to see 1 line of 3-6 moves  in one page that is similar to something that has been published previously even when the name of the contributor is quoted a couple of paragraph above, I would say : take the matter to the court and I am sure it would be edifying for everyone.


« Last Edit: 03/11/14 at 12:27:26 by LGXIII »  
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brabo
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #53 - 03/11/14 at 10:12:58
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/11/14 at 07:54:50:
Looking at the database to see whether a move deserves the "N" cannot be the right solution.

"N" already exists much longer than databases. However there is no universal law which obliges new authors to use the "N" sign in the old traditional way. There is certainly also a valid argument just to state that chess has developed too much to keep on using the traditional way of the "N" sign. Something you maybe can compare with the abolishment of adjournments.

Besides I also believe you need to make a distinction where you are making the "N" sign. I analyze all my personal games and I use the "N" sign very often but obviously I can't spend the same amount of time at the openings compared with an author writing about 1 specific opening for sometimes years. I publish quite a lot of my personal games on my blog but I believe nobody will expect that my "N" signs are more than a database check (although often it is more !!). So when a "N" sign is deserved, is linked to the expectations.

Now if one thing became clear of the quarrel on QC is that expectations can be very different.
  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #52 - 03/11/14 at 07:54:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/11/14 at 01:30:08:
I'll leave this open for a few more days and see what sort of comments are made. If it's clear that people are ready to move on, I'll close it.

This thread is about a fundamental question. Fling, GabrielGale, katar and others have written excellent posts. Why close it? If those members need time to lay down their carefully weighted opinions, fine with me - it can only raise the level of the discussion. I do not agree with some of the conclusions, but a discussion on copyright questions remains important. I've hesitated to weigh in, as I am in e-mail contact with John Shaw, hoping to find a solution.

One point (and I guess QC agrees with me): serious opening analysis takes much more effort than just running Houdini overnight. It is a long process of going through vast amounts of variations, a steady process of refinement, distilling ideas and reading books. The human input is immense. - Famous non-chess authors have an active repertoire of ~ 50,000 words. These are their basic elements for composing articles and books. Nobody doubts that the results are works protected by copyright. So I'd argue that the kind of opening analysis which I do and what you see in books from Quality Chess is surely protected by copyright. - This legal question isn't settled, so everyone is free to disagree. 

I'll admit that the use of "N" touches copyright questions only very indirectly. Plagiarism is older than copyright laws, so one has to distinguish between the legal issues and the journalistic ethics. If there were a poll at the ChessPub, I believe that a majority of voters would prefer the term "novelty" in opening literature to be used in a traditional way - as e.g. Tim Harding did it, a professional journalist. Looking at the database to see whether a move deserves the "N" cannot be the right solution.
  
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Re: Novelties, copyright, inflamed feelings
Reply #51 - 03/11/14 at 01:54:21
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/10/14 at 20:59:34:
TonyRo wrote on 03/10/14 at 18:00:54:
Even if you manage to track down all of the sources, parsing through all of that information is still challenging!


True, but the Bernstein-Sergeev game is in MegaBase and a repertoire search in ChessBase takes one second to find it.

Maybe the only thing we can definitely take from this debate is that putting 'N' behind moves is a risky business! Smiley


Totally agree - databases are more cut and dry than parsing through magazines, books, or searching internet forums and such. I think it's the authors responsibility to keep track down all of the games and keep it maintained for the duration of his work. Nowadays this isn't particularly difficult.
  
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