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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange (Read 8272 times)
MarinFan
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #21 - 01/18/17 at 23:09:02
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This move order is used in Pert's book on the ragozin. One idea for black is to play 6...c6 against the attempt by white to tranpose to Botvinnik v Capablanca rubinstein lines.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #20 - 02/22/15 at 20:43:22
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I've looked at the Qa4 line, which I thought was supposed to be the refutation of Bb4, but Black seems fine.

I have real problems against the Ragozin variation, so the transposition to the Nimzo lines mentioned above are definitely appealing.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #19 - 11/30/14 at 19:05:27
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Playing around with databases and engines after 9.Nge2:

9...h5 10.h4 Nxg3 11.Nxg3 gxh4 12.Nxh5 c6

...and Black's side of the game looks playable.

  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #18 - 11/28/14 at 06:58:55
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To clarify, I think you guys are discussing this position:



I have to admit that I think White is hugely better there, so I was wondering whether I had the position wrong.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #17 - 11/28/14 at 02:01:36
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I rather like the activity—and I think Black can make decent use of the queenside majority under the right circumstances. I'd need to bash out a bunch of variations and give the position more thought to reach a more deliberate conclusion. But, optically, I don't mind being Black here.
  

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Aziridine
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #16 - 11/27/14 at 21:38:46
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Probably just 10.a3. You have some activity but those kingside weaknesses aren't going away.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #15 - 11/27/14 at 21:23:49
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Hmm. I'd have to look at that a bit. What's wrong with 9...c5 in response? It looks as though White's development is compromised and Black has some time to activate pieces and fight for the centre.
  

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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #14 - 11/27/14 at 21:12:26
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9.Ne2 looks more testing. In general this move seems to be the antidote to the early ...Bb4.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #13 - 11/27/14 at 19:45:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/15/14 at 14:15:12:
I believe that there was a Dangerous Weapons or Secrets of Opening Surprises chapter devoted to 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 Bb4, which might interest you also.  Generally these lines have been thought of as better for White but within the bounds of playability.


Definitely within the bounds of playability. This is hardly the last word on anything, but it's a game I played a few years ago, inspired by the DW chapter. I have a hard time believing in 10.Bxb8, but that came straight out of the DW lines.



I'm not crazy about 3...Bb4, but I'm also less inclined to fear the Exchange either.
  

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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #12 - 05/16/14 at 22:12:29
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Aziridine wrote on 05/16/14 at 21:46:29:
Emms chose a strange moment to cut off his analysis of 14.Bb2: White won very quickly in Averbakh - Donchenko, Moscow 1970.


hmm ...Averbakh-Donchenko was cited as unclear after 19. f4 by ECO in the '90s, which also gave 19. Nf5 b3 unclear according to Kasparov.  But in the first (1970s) edition, Averbakh-Donchenko was given as ± after 19. f4 (the section was written by Botvinnik and Abramov).  14...c4 went from "?" in the '70s to "!" in the '90s ...
« Last Edit: 05/17/14 at 00:11:43 by kylemeister »  
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Aziridine
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #11 - 05/16/14 at 21:46:29
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kylemeister wrote on 05/16/14 at 20:22:37:
I notice that back in NCO Emms preferred 14. Ra2, and thought 14. Bb2 to be unclear (with Black pushing his queenside pawns and not his h-pawn).

Emms chose a strange moment to cut off his analysis of 14.Bb2: White won very quickly in Averbakh - Donchenko, Moscow 1970.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #10 - 05/16/14 at 20:22:37
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Aziridine wrote on 05/16/14 at 19:40:07:
That game featured a critical line, where I think 14.Ra2 (a la Botvinnik) is too slow - White needs to play 14.Bb2 to threaten 15.e4 immediately and provoke 14...c4. Emms's analysis of Volkov - Del Rio de Angelis, Vrachati 2011 on this site is quite illuminating.


I notice that back in NCO Emms preferred 14. Ra2, and thought 14. Bb2 to be unclear (with Black pushing his queenside pawns and not his h-pawn).
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #9 - 05/16/14 at 19:40:07
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kylemeister wrote on 05/16/14 at 15:52:33:
Just incidentally, this 3...Bb4 with subsequent transposition to the Botvinnik-Capa line occurred today in Eljanov-Bologan (0-1, 52).

That game featured a critical line, where I think 14.Ra2 (a la Botvinnik) is too slow - White needs to play 14.Bb2 to threaten 15.e4 immediately and provoke 14...c4. Emms's analysis of Volkov - Del Rio de Angelis, Vrachati 2011 on this site is quite illuminating.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #8 - 05/16/14 at 15:52:33
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Just incidentally, this 3...Bb4 with subsequent transposition to the Botvinnik-Capa line occurred today in Eljanov-Bologan (0-1, 52).  Once upon a time (well, about 13 years ago), Drazen Marovic wrote that Ljubojevic had been "the last of the Mohicans" to play it with Black.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #7 - 05/15/14 at 21:05:32
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Keano wrote on 05/15/14 at 10:23:45:
There is nothing at all wrong with 3...Bb4. It is a perfectly good line and a lot of GM's play it!

Even at GM level White scores quite well after 4.a3 Bxc3+ 5.bxc3. Strange that White doesn't choose this more often.

ErictheRed wrote on 05/15/14 at 14:15:12:
I believe that there was a Dangerous Weapons or Secrets of Opening Surprises chapter devoted to 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 Bb4, which might interest you also.

That was indeed in Dangerous Weapons: Queen's Gambit. Vitiugov also covers 3...Bb4 (rather superficially) in SOS Vol. 11.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #6 - 05/15/14 at 14:15:12
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I believe that there was a Dangerous Weapons or Secrets of Opening Surprises chapter devoted to 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 Bb4, which might interest you also.  Generally these lines have been thought of as better for White but within the bounds of playability. 

As you've already discovered, the biggest issue with 3...Bb4 will be dealing with transpositions that you may not want to allow, i.e. 4.e3 Nf6 is a Nimzo line you might not want to play.  As Kylemeister points out, there are ideas involving an early ...c5 and putting the knight on e7 instead of f6, which while probably no better than the Nimzo transposition, at least lead to more original play.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #5 - 05/15/14 at 10:23:45
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There is nothing at all wrong with 3...Bb4. It is a perfectly good line and a lot of GM's play it!
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #4 - 05/15/14 at 00:22:22
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Well, ...b6 and ...Ba6 is a standard thing in the line Aziridine indicated (Botvinnik-Capablanca being a classic example).
Some other "book" possibilities in the move order under discussion involve ...Ne7 instead of ...Nf6; for example 5...c5 6. cd ed 7. e3 Nc6 8. Bd3 Nge7 9. Ne2 c4 10. Bc2 Bf5 was considered as leading to += in ECO.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #3 - 05/14/14 at 23:51:52
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Aziridine wrote on 05/14/14 at 19:44:33:
Your main line transposes to 4.e3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 from the Nimzo, a tabiya long considered a little better for White: 6...0-0 7.cxd5 exd5 8.Bd3 intending Ne2, 0-0, f3, etc.


Indeed this is precisely the sort of position i am striving to avoid. Strange i missed that after looking at cxd in so many other lines.

I wonder if black can benefit in some way from delaing Nf6 after

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3 5.bc ...

Perhaps some idea with b6, 0-0 and Ba6 to exchange the light square bishop.... back to the drawing board.
  
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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #2 - 05/14/14 at 19:54:55
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Without doing any preparation or research whatsoever when i saw this as White I always played 4.Qa4+ Nc6.   I would think even cxd5 should be good for White however Black recaptures.  I played Chigorin QGD as my mainline for years, so perhaps I feel Black's pain vicariously with N/c6 and a blocked B/c8 and no chance of e7-e5 break.  It's like you sat on a motorcycle but you have a flat tire.  I'm sure statistically and engine-wise it's fine though.
  

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Re: Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
Reply #1 - 05/14/14 at 19:44:33
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Your main line transposes to 4.e3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 from the Nimzo, a tabiya long considered a little better for White: 6...0-0 7.cxd5 exd5 8.Bd3 intending Ne2, 0-0, f3, etc.
  
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Ragozin Repertoire trick to avoid QG Exchange
05/14/14 at 18:15:17
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So, what is a Ragozin player to do if he wants to avoid the QG exchange? I have been playing the NID move order (Nf6, e6, Bb4). I play an early d5 in response to Nf3, Qc2 or e3 aiming to minimize repertoire complexity. However there is a fair amount of work to learn the sidelines and still the problem of how to face the English Opening after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3. In my hopes of steering the English into the QG/Catalan lines which I already know, I came up with:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4. Thus far in ICC blitz, it just usually transposes to a ragozin or NID/Ragozin hybrid. So, what's wrong with 3...Bb4? Rank amateur analysis attached.


  

Ragozin_Anti-Exchange.pgn ( 2 KB | 59 Downloads )
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