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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!? (Read 8055 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #17 - 05/19/14 at 12:33:52
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/18/14 at 16:34:46:
On the other side, if Nxe5 is not prevented at all by 7.Nc3, isn't it a bit too generous to play 7.Nc3 and let the opponent ruin my pawn structure?


Yes, true, good point! Smiley Your line with 12 0-0 looks OK, I suppose the pressure on d4 balances the weakness of f7.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #16 - 05/18/14 at 22:35:03
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Neil McDonald had already recommended 7.Nxc6 in The King's Gambit (1998), p.30, a book listed in Shaw's bibliography:

Quote:
6...Df6!? [...] was tried in the blindfold game Nunn-Piket, Monaco 1995. Now instead of 7. Nc3?! [...] 7 Nxc6 looks good, e.g. 7...dxc6 8 e5 Qf5 9 Bd3 Qd7 10 c3 c5 11 Bxf4 cxd4 12 cxd4 c5 13 d5! or 7...Qxc6 8 Bd3 d5 9 o-o dxe4(?) 10 Lxe4!

Thanks to Henk Smout for the hint.

The immediate 12.Bxf5 Qxf5 13.0-0 in my last post (see diagram) is better for Black according to my PC, because of 13...Qxh5 14.Nc3 Qg6! (preventing Ne4). However, both 12.0-0!? or 9.Nc3 seem to be sound.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #15 - 05/18/14 at 16:34:46
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/17/14 at 12:07:49:
Still, I would be tempted to give this line a try OTB as it has reasonable surprise value, those tempting Nd5 xc7 lines get White into a real mess, and Black doesn't seem to risk anything.

Yes, it is far from obvious why 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nc6 6.d4 Qf6 7.Nc3 Nxe5 8.Nd5? is so disastrous for White. A great trap, pointed out by micawber. On the other side, if Nxe5 is not prevented at all by 7.Nc3, isn't it a bit too generous to play 7.Nc3 and let the opponent ruin my pawn structure?

John Shaw comments (The King's Gambit, p.134) : "7.Nxc6 is not so bad as before, but still not good. 7...dxc6 and Black is at least level." Still, I believe that 7.Nxc6 dxc6 8.e5 is critical. For example: 8...Qg6 9.Bd3 (or 9.Nc3) Bf5 10.h5 Qe6 11.Bxf4 0-0-0 12.Bxf5 Qxf5 13.0-0.

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Here the game would start, in a pretty unclear position. That's what a "creative King's Gambit aggressor" is hoping for.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #14 - 05/17/14 at 12:07:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/14 at 07:26:11:
12.g3 is an option (instead of 12.Rf1), e.g. 12...Bg4 13.Bxf4 Bxf3 14.Bxe5 dxe5 15.Bxf3. This position is just equal for all practical purposes. There isn't much what Black can do.


Yes, I suppose Black could prefer 11...Be6 (after 11 Be2) to keep the h6-bishop defended, 12 Rf1 0-0-0 13 Bxf4 Bxf4 14 Qxf4 Ne7 (or 14...Qxf4 15 Rxf4 Ne7), but White is not worse.
Also, 11...c6 would transpose to another line of Shaw's, 12 Rf1 Nf6 13 Bxf4 Bxf4 14 Qxf4 Qxf4 15 Rxf4 Ke7=
Still, I would be tempted to give this line a try OTB as it has reasonable surprise value, those tempting Nd5 xc7 lines get White into a real mess, and Black doesn't seem to risk anything.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #13 - 05/17/14 at 09:36:42
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/17/14 at 07:26:11:
TalJechin wrote on 05/16/14 at 10:50:46:
Well, it's been mentioned in KG-books for a long while. For example, I gave it 2 pages in the Creative Aggressor, calling it the Viennese defence due to Neumann.

It should be "Neumann's Defence", in my opinion. Gustav Neumann wasn't from Vienna. Dahlgrün called 5...Nc6 "Wiener Verteidigung", but without an explanation. You had mentioned Dahlgrün in your sources (vols 2-4). While you clearly focused on the analysis, your book doesn't ignore the history of the KG and the development of ideas. Readers of Shaw's book are left guessing: Was 5...Nc6 first recommended in the 1970s, or in the 1920s? It is Shaw's ahistoric approach to an old opening which I find appalling.


Aha, well I assumed that Dahlgrun knew that better than I do. Maybe he lived in Vienna for a while?

There's not so much info on him, just found out that he was the first to have a perfect score, probably the biggest perfect score too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Neumann
« Last Edit: 05/17/14 at 12:46:33 by TalJechin »  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #12 - 05/17/14 at 07:26:11
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TalJechin wrote on 05/16/14 at 10:50:46:
Well, it's been mentioned in KG-books for a long while. For example, I gave it 2 pages in the Creative Aggressor, calling it the Viennese defence due to Neumann.

It should be "Neumann's Defence", in my opinion. Gustav Neumann wasn't from Vienna. Dahlgrün called 5...Nc6 "Wiener Verteidigung", but without an explanation. You had mentioned Dahlgrün in your sources (vols 2-4). While you clearly focused on the analysis, your book doesn't ignore the history of the KG and the development of ideas. Readers of Shaw's book are left guessing: Was 5...Nc6 first recommended in the 1970s, or in the 1920s? It is Shaw's ahistoric approach to an old opening which I find appalling.

GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/17/14 at 01:55:20:
KenJones wrote on 05/16/14 at 17:10:09:
I did look at 9...Bh6 briefly with an engine.  After 10 Qf3 d6 11 Be2 looked sound enough--if 11...Nf6 12 Rf1 picks the off f4.


I quite like the idea of getting a knight to e5 in such lines (for instance 12...Be6 13 Bxf4 Bxf4 14 Qxf4 Nd7, and if 15 0-0-0 0-0-0 16 Nd5 Bxd5 17 Rxd5 Qxf4+ 18 Rxf4 Ne5) I suppose it is only an optical advantage, and the position is objectively equal, but still I would be happy playing such positions over the board.

12.g3 is an option (instead of 12.Rf1), e.g. 12...Bg4 13.Bxf4 Bxf3 14.Bxe5 dxe5 15.Bxf3. This position is just equal for all practical purposes. There isn't much what Black can do.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #11 - 05/17/14 at 01:55:20
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KenJones wrote on 05/16/14 at 17:10:09:
I did look at 9...Bh6 briefly with an engine.  After 10 Qf3 d6 11 Be2 looked sound enough--if 11...Nf6 12 Rf1 picks the off f4.


I quite like the idea of getting a knight to e5 in such lines (for instance 12...Be6 13 Bxf4 Bxf4 14 Qxf4 Nd7, and if 15 0-0-0 0-0-0 16 Nd5 Bxd5 17 Rxd5 Qxf4+ 18 Rxf4 Ne5) I suppose it is only an optical advantage, and the position is objectively equal, but still I would be happy playing such positions over the board.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #10 - 05/16/14 at 17:10:09
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/16/14 at 12:09:12:
KenJones wrote on 05/16/14 at 04:31:13:
In a recent ICCF game I had the opportunity to test a recommendation from John Shaw’s King Gambit book.  Larry Dulany (2347)-Kenneth Jones (2240), ICCF Webserver 2014:  1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nc6!? (“a little known but sound equalizer”, Shaw) 6.d4 Qf6! 7.Nc3 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5 9.Qxg4 Bb4


My first thought when seeing this game was to play 9...Bh6 and hang on to the f4-pawn for a while, for instance 10 Qf3 d6 11 Nd5 can be met by 11...Nf6! 12 Nxc7+? Kd8 13 Nxa8 Nxe4 14 Be2 Rg8! and Black is winning! The f4-pawn will provide a useful square for Black on g3 - 15 0-0 Rg3 -+


I did look at 9...Bh6 briefly with an engine.  After 10 Qf3 d6 11 Be2 looked sound enough--if 11...Nf6 12 Rf1 picks the off f4.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #9 - 05/16/14 at 17:02:16
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RdC wrote on 05/16/14 at 09:40:33:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/16/14 at 08:31:38:
5...Nc6 was recommended by Gustav Neumann in an article in La Strategie 1869. It is well known, not "little known".


I was only able to trace one game with the 6. d4 Qf6 continuation and that was Nunn-Piket from the Melody Amber blindfold in 1995. There may have been some recent ones because of the Shaw book. As the Kieseritzky is not that uncommon over the board, I don't think it is well known to practical 1. .. e5 players by the evidence that hardly any have played Nc6.  Those who have read everything ever published on the Kings Gambit may have a different view.


To be fair to Shaw, I truncated his quote in my first post.   He actually wrote, "5...Nc6!? is, by a long way, my favourite of Black's rare 5th moves--it is a little known but sound equalizer, with a vicious trap I suspect some unlucky White player will fall for soon."  He is clearly referring to the sequence 5...Nc6 6 d4 Qf6! 7 Nc3 Nxe5 8 Nd5?! here, which he (and I) believe to be better for Black.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #8 - 05/16/14 at 12:19:43
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TalJechin wrote on 05/16/14 at 10:50:46:
Well, it's been mentioned in KG-books for a long while. For example, I gave it 2 pages in the Creative Aggressor, calling it the Viennese defence due to Neumann.

7...Nxe5 is new compared to what I wrote then.

A quick search revealed the following corr game that might be bad news for 7...Nxe5,  or maybe the engines are much stronger now seven years later?
- I also found a brief mention by Bangiev: "7...Nxe5 8.Nd5!" ending there.



I don't have an engine available right now, but I know that even anno 2014 not all players in OS tournaments use engines. This is the lowest level of tournament play at the Deutsche Fernschachbund and when I was still playing OS I met many players not using engines, or not using them very effectively. I don't know if that's the case with the game in question... just saying
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #7 - 05/16/14 at 12:09:12
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KenJones wrote on 05/16/14 at 04:31:13:
In a recent ICCF game I had the opportunity to test a recommendation from John Shaw’s King Gambit book.  Larry Dulany (2347)-Kenneth Jones (2240), ICCF Webserver 2014:  1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nc6!? (“a little known but sound equalizer”, Shaw) 6.d4 Qf6! 7.Nc3 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5 9.Qxg4 Bb4


My first thought when seeing this game was to play 9...Bh6 and hang on to the f4-pawn for a while, for instance 10 Qf3 d6 11 Nd5 can be met by 11...Nf6! 12 Nxc7+? Kd8 13 Nxa8 Nxe4 14 Be2 Rg8! and Black is winning! The f4-pawn will provide a useful square for Black on g3 - 15 0-0 Rg3 -+
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #6 - 05/16/14 at 12:01:05
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RdC wrote on 05/16/14 at 11:05:24:
a messy line where you give up the a8 Rook isn't everyone's idea of a sound equaliser.


Apparently he also suggested the move 10...f3!? (instead of 10...Qxe4+) and this seems really interesting to me, for instance following his 11. dxe5 Qxe4+ 12. Be2 fxg2 13. Rg1 Bc5 14. Bg5+ I was wondering whether Black could play 14...f6 15. exf6 h6 - despite being a rook down Black might actually be somewhat better here, the knight is never escaping from a8.
White might be better off not taking the knight and playing 11 Qd2, perhaps, 11...Qxe4+ 12 Kd1 Nc6 13 c3. Still, I would prefer to be Black here.

  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #5 - 05/16/14 at 11:49:04
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TalJechin wrote on 05/16/14 at 10:50:46:
A quick search revealed the following corr game that might be bad news for 7...Nxe5,  or maybe the engines are much stronger now seven years later?
- I also found a brief mention by Bangiev: "7...Nxe5 8.Nd5!" ending there.


I don't actually own John Shaw's book myself, but in this Held-Hartmann game, after 7. Nc3 Nxe5 8. Nd5
Qg6 9. Nxc7+ Kd8 10. Nxa8 Qxe4+ 11. Qe2 Qxd4 12. c3 Qd6 13. Bxf4 I believe he gives the line 13...Nf3+ with 14. gxf3 Qxf4 15. fxg4 Nf6 =+. or 14. Qxf3 gxf3 15. Bxd6 Bxd6 =+
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #4 - 05/16/14 at 11:05:24
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TalJechin wrote on 05/16/14 at 10:48:17:
A quick search revealed the following corr game that might be bad news for 7...Nxe5




Piket played 7. .. Bb4 but a messy line where you give up the a8 Rook isn't everyone's idea of a sound equaliser. Does Shaw's book mention this idea?

  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #3 - 05/16/14 at 10:50:46
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Well, it's been mentioned in KG-books for a long while. For example, I gave it 2 pages in the Creative Aggressor, calling it the Viennese defence due to Neumann.

7...Nxe5 is new compared to what I wrote then.

A quick search revealed the following corr game that might be bad news for 7...Nxe5,  or maybe the engines are much stronger now seven years later?
- I also found a brief mention by Bangiev: "7...Nxe5 8.Nd5!" ending there.

  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #2 - 05/16/14 at 09:40:33
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/16/14 at 08:31:38:
5...Nc6 was recommended by Gustav Neumann in an article in La Strategie 1869. It is well known, not "little known".


I was only able to trace one game with the 6. d4 Qf6 continuation and that was Nunn-Piket from the Melody Amber blindfold in 1995. There may have been some recent ones because of the Shaw book. As the Kieseritzky is not that uncommon over the board, I don't think it is well known to practical 1. .. e5 players by the evidence that hardly any have played Nc6.  Those who have read everything ever published on the Kings Gambit may have a different view.
  
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Re: C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
Reply #1 - 05/16/14 at 08:31:38
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5...Nc6 was recommended by Gustav Neumann in an article in La Strategie 1869. It is well known, not "little known".
  
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C39: Kieseritzky with 5...Nc6!?
05/16/14 at 04:31:13
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In a recent ICCF game I had the opportunity to test a recommendation from John Shaw’s King Gambit book.  Larry Dulany (2347)-Kenneth Jones (2240), ICCF Webserver 2014:  1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nc6!? (“a little known but sound equalizer”, Shaw) 6.d4 Qf6! 7.Nc3 Nxe5 8.dxe5 Qxe5 9.Qxg4 Bb4 10.Qf3 Nf6 11.Bxf4 Qxe4+ 12.Be2 d6 (=, Shaw. Seemed right to me; the 2 B’s and lead in development are just enough compensation) 13.O-O-O Bxc3 14. bxc3 Be6 15.c4!? (15.Bg5 Qxf3 16.Bxf3 Nd7 17.Bxb7 Rb8 18.Bc6 Rb6 19.Ba4 Bxa2 20. Rhe1+ Be6 and while it's still pretty drawish, Black has held the pawn with a lot more play than in the game) 15... Qxf3 16. Bxf3 Bxc4 17. Bxb7 Rb8 18. Bc6+ Ke7 19. Rde1+ Be6 20. Rhf1 h6 21. Rf3 a6 (1/2-1/2).  Black’s weak pawns preclude any winning chances, but he never seemed in any danger.

I’ve kept my notes light so as not to push the discussion in any particular way, but I welcome input from all the KG experts here!
  
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