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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!! (Read 14596 times)
Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #36 - 07/16/14 at 03:21:07
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Won Another game. Grin



  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #35 - 07/05/14 at 04:38:40
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TalJechin wrote on 07/03/14 at 19:53:08:
PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


It's actually a transposition to the line Shaw claims as the refutation of the Bishop's Gambit Smiley



Just few days back I read his book. He says King's Bishop's Gambit is busted!!. So he proposes a single line in analysis because others are not needed !!!  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
  
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TalJechin
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #34 - 07/03/14 at 19:53:08
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PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


It's actually a transposition to the line Shaw claims as the refutation of the Bishop's Gambit  Smiley
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #33 - 07/03/14 at 19:30:52
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PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


6.f3 is a good move. Nothing wrong in it.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #32 - 07/03/14 at 08:47:01
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Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #31 - 07/03/14 at 06:26:40
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kylemeister wrote on 07/02/14 at 19:37:14:
From those links it would seem that (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. d4 Bb4) 6. Nge2 is "!!" but should lead to a slight advantage for Black, while 6. e5 Ne4 7. Kf1 is "!?" although it should lose ...


After Nge2 white has real chances of wining as black too often comes in cross roads after White plays Kh1. With optimal moves black can hold for a draw as the advantage is miniscule.
The latter Kf1!? may be true. I played it to set a trap And I won. Why ? Because engines consider it winning. Se my notes in the blog. And remember All games were played with engine assistance with 50 days per 10 moves time limit.

Here is a Game.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #30 - 07/02/14 at 19:37:14
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From those links it would seem that (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. d4 Bb4) 6. Nge2 is "!!" but should lead to a slight advantage for Black, while 6. e5 Ne4 7. Kf1 is "!?" although it should lose ...
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #29 - 07/02/14 at 18:34:59
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barnaby wrote on 06/29/14 at 18:21:16:
Master Om wrote on 06/29/14 at 07:00:45:
barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.� Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing � which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well � in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) � but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.� In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent.� White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.� This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.� Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.� It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.� and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!� Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want.� I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.



Get over yourself.

That game is four years old and in addition you are insulting for no reason at all.

Black failed to play the best move in the opening.  Period.








You should get over yourself. I have been playing correspondence chess frequently. And I employ Kings Gambit more Often. I have not yet lost a single game. I play Bishop's Gambit because its better than Kings Knight Gambit as its less explored. If Optimal lines are played there is no line where black gets a long lasting advantage. Most king's gambit is own at the endgames. And you perhaps know all players use Huge hardwares to play correspondence chess now a days.
See Here
Here Too

And Here is my Game from All India Correspondence Chess Championship 1511

Link

  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #28 - 06/29/14 at 19:06:50
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Hadron wrote on 06/08/14 at 01:13:04:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley

The Wagenbach Defence? I think have a pdf of a couple of articles written a time ago. Does it really work? It something I have not seen in all the time I have played the King's Gumboot...
Regards
Hadron.


Remarkably even the absurd 1.e4 e5 2.f4 h5?!?! seems perfectly playable for Black.

Perhaps Williams will address some of these oddities in a third DVD-lol.

Tops  Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #27 - 06/29/14 at 18:21:16
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Master Om wrote on 06/29/14 at 07:00:45:
barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense. Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5. In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent. White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves. This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent. Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations. It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening. and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one! Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want. I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.



Get over yourself.

That game is four years old and in addition you are insulting for no reason at all.

Black failed to play the best move in the opening.  Period.





  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #26 - 06/29/14 at 07:00:45
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barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense. Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5. In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent. White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves. This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent. Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations. It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening. and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one! Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want. I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #25 - 06/08/14 at 19:35:34
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 17:19:45:
I did work out a positional justification as to why it might work. In may variations, Black would ideally like to maintain a wedge of pawns on g5 and f4. The problem is that this can be undermined by White playing h4, g3 or both. In the Wagenbach, White is prevented from playing h4, because there's a Black pawn there and g3 is inhibited. In terms of lost tempi, it might only be one, as in a conventional set-up you might be playing h6 anyway.


Yes, clamping down on the kingside is the strategic point. For White h2-h4 can be powerful (e.g. 4 Bc4 g5? 5 h4! - hence 4...h4!) but not definitively so: 4 d4 (4 h4 Nf6!) 4...g5 5 h4 g4 6 Ne5 reaches a Long Whip with Bc4 replaced by d2-d4. Shaw suggests this in his book, but it's by no means conclusive.

RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 17:19:45:
I also took a look at my most recent record as Black against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 . Playing the d5 and exf4 plan scored a miserable 1 draw from 5 games with 4 losses. Switching to "other stuff", I've had 8 wins and 3 draws from 11, including some very quick wins.


Yes, Black should play whatever they feel comfortable with. If that's ...d7-d5, fine; but personally, as I said, I don't like those positions as Black. Similarly, I don't really like 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 f4 d5 either, however equal it may be. I generally play 2...Nc6 in the Vienna.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #24 - 06/08/14 at 17:19:45
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/08/14 at 12:50:36:
But in this you really do have to know what you're doing and to have the sort of perverse nature that likes "wasting time" on advancing the rook's pawn to the fifth rank by move 4 or 5 in an open game.


I had a quick look into this. Over the board, hardly anyone has had the courage to adopt this, at least not in tournaments where games are likely to be collected in databases for posterity. Databases of Correspondence games contain a fair few.

I did work out a positional justification as to why it might work. In may variations, Black would ideally like to maintain a wedge of pawns on g5 and f4. The problem is that this can be undermined by White playing h4, g3 or both. In the Wagenbach, White is prevented from playing h4, because there's a Black pawn there and g3 is inhibited. In terms of lost tempi, it might only be one, as in a conventional set-up you might be playing h6 anyway.

I also took a look at my most recent record as Black against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 . Playing the d5 and exf4 plan scored a miserable 1 draw from 5 games with 4 losses. Switching to "other stuff", I've had 8 wins and 3 draws from 11, including some very quick wins.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #23 - 06/08/14 at 16:32:06
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 10:59:19:
Over twenty years ago with the help of New in Chess Yearbooks and ChessBase, I adopted that type of defence to the Kings Gambit. It was based in part on a game Ree-Short. It seemed to work well and players with White were unfamiliar with the resulting unbalanced middle game. I'm thinking of the positions where Black still has the pawn on f4, supported by the Bishop from d6, but has given back the pawn with c6, dxc6 Nxc6. So there's 4v2 on both sides of the board. Once the Gallagher book came out, players of the White side had a much better idea on how to play that type of position.


Maybe that game had an influence on Ree's fairly recent NIC magazine piece about the KG.  Addressing a Modern position of the kind you describe, he quoted Shaw to the effect that White's chances are better than engines think, then wrote something like "Like Schlechter, I would be afraid of Black's kingside pawns."
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #22 - 06/08/14 at 12:50:36
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Hadron wrote on 06/08/14 at 01:13:04:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley

The Wagenbach Defence? I think have a pdf of a couple of articles written a time ago. Does it really work? It something I have not seen in all the time I have played the King's Gumboot...
Regards
Hadron.


Does it work? Good question. No one's proved a refutation of it so far at least. And I have a massive plus score with it in all forms of play Smiley . But in this you really do have to know what you're doing and to have the sort of perverse nature that likes "wasting time" on advancing the rook's pawn to the fifth rank by move 4 or 5 in an open game.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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