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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!! (Read 12633 times)
Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #36 - 07/16/14 at 03:21:07
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Won Another game. Grin



  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #35 - 07/05/14 at 04:38:40
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TalJechin wrote on 07/03/14 at 19:53:08:
PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


It's actually a transposition to the line Shaw claims as the refutation of the Bishop's Gambit  Smiley



Just few days back I read his book. He says King's Bishop's Gambit is busted!!. So he proposes a single line in analysis because others are not needed !!!  Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #34 - 07/03/14 at 19:53:08
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PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


It's actually a transposition to the line Shaw claims as the refutation of the Bishop's Gambit  Smiley
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #33 - 07/03/14 at 19:30:52
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PANFR wrote on 07/03/14 at 08:47:01:
Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes


6.f3 is a good move. Nothing wrong in it.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #32 - 07/03/14 at 08:47:01
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Well... I'm afraid it's difficult for me to understand collaborative moves like 6...f3 in the above game. Sure, "white has chances" if Black plays like that!  Roll Eyes
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #31 - 07/03/14 at 06:26:40
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kylemeister wrote on 07/02/14 at 19:37:14:
From those links it would seem that (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. d4 Bb4) 6. Nge2 is "!!" but should lead to a slight advantage for Black, while 6. e5 Ne4 7. Kf1 is "!?" although it should lose ...


After Nge2 white has real chances of wining as black too often comes in cross roads after White plays Kh1. With optimal moves black can hold for a draw as the advantage is miniscule.
The latter Kf1!? may be true. I played it to set a trap And I won. Why ? Because engines consider it winning. Se my notes in the blog. And remember All games were played with engine assistance with 50 days per 10 moves time limit.

Here is a Game.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #30 - 07/02/14 at 19:37:14
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From those links it would seem that (1. e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. d4 Bb4) 6. Nge2 is "!!" but should lead to a slight advantage for Black, while 6. e5 Ne4 7. Kf1 is "!?" although it should lose ...
  
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Master Om
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #29 - 07/02/14 at 18:34:59
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barnaby wrote on 06/29/14 at 18:21:16:
Master Om wrote on 06/29/14 at 07:00:45:
barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.� Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing � which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well � in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) � but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.� In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent.� White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.� This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.� Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.� It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.� and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!� Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want.� I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.



Get over yourself.

That game is four years old and in addition you are insulting for no reason at all.

Black failed to play the best move in the opening.  Period.



�




You should get over yourself. I have been playing correspondence chess frequently. And I employ Kings Gambit more Often. I have not yet lost a single game. I play Bishop's Gambit because its better than Kings Knight Gambit as its less explored. If Optimal lines are played there is no line where black gets a long lasting advantage. Most king's gambit is own at the endgames. And you perhaps know all players use Huge hardwares to play correspondence chess now a days.
See Here
Here Too

And Here is my Game from All India Correspondence Chess Championship 1511

Link

  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #28 - 06/29/14 at 19:06:50
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Hadron wrote on 06/08/14 at 01:13:04:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley

The Wagenbach Defence? I think have a pdf of a couple of articles written a time ago. Does it really work? It something I have not seen in all the time I have played the King's Gumboot...
Regards
Hadron.


Remarkably even the absurd 1.e4 e5 2.f4 h5?!?! seems perfectly playable for Black.

Perhaps Williams will address some of these oddities in a third DVD-lol.

Tops  Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #27 - 06/29/14 at 18:21:16
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Master Om wrote on 06/29/14 at 07:00:45:
barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.  Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing – which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well – in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) – but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.  In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent.  White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.  This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.  Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.  It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.  and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!  Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want.  I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.



Get over yourself.

That game is four years old and in addition you are insulting for no reason at all.

Black failed to play the best move in the opening.  Period.



 

  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #26 - 06/29/14 at 07:00:45
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barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.  Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing – which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well – in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) – but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.  In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent.  White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.  This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.  Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.  It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.  and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!  Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want.  I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley



If you have no Idea of what you say you better be silent.
Kings gambit is valid and still playable. I still play at higher correspondence level and have won also.
Here is an example of your inaccuracy.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #25 - 06/08/14 at 19:35:34
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 17:19:45:
I did work out a positional justification as to why it might work. In may variations, Black would ideally like to maintain a wedge of pawns on g5 and f4. The problem is that this can be undermined by White playing h4, g3 or both. In the Wagenbach, White is prevented from playing h4, because there's a Black pawn there and g3 is inhibited. In terms of lost tempi, it might only be one, as in a conventional set-up you might be playing h6 anyway.


Yes, clamping down on the kingside is the strategic point. For White h2-h4 can be powerful (e.g. 4 Bc4 g5? 5 h4! - hence 4...h4!) but not definitively so: 4 d4 (4 h4 Nf6!) 4...g5 5 h4 g4 6 Ne5 reaches a Long Whip with Bc4 replaced by d2-d4. Shaw suggests this in his book, but it's by no means conclusive.

RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 17:19:45:
I also took a look at my most recent record as Black against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 . Playing the d5 and exf4 plan scored a miserable 1 draw from 5 games with 4 losses. Switching to "other stuff", I've had 8 wins and 3 draws from 11, including some very quick wins.


Yes, Black should play whatever they feel comfortable with. If that's ...d7-d5, fine; but personally, as I said, I don't like those positions as Black. Similarly, I don't really like 1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 f4 d5 either, however equal it may be. I generally play 2...Nc6 in the Vienna.
  

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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #24 - 06/08/14 at 17:19:45
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/08/14 at 12:50:36:
But in this you really do have to know what you're doing – and to have the sort of perverse nature that likes "wasting time" on advancing the rook's pawn to the fifth rank by move 4 or 5 in an open game.


I had a quick look into this. Over the board, hardly anyone has had the courage to adopt this, at least not in tournaments where games are likely to be collected in databases for posterity. Databases of Correspondence games contain a fair few.

I did work out a positional justification as to why it might work. In may variations, Black would ideally like to maintain a wedge of pawns on g5 and f4. The problem is that this can be undermined by White playing h4, g3 or both. In the Wagenbach, White is prevented from playing h4, because there's a Black pawn there and g3 is inhibited. In terms of lost tempi, it might only be one, as in a conventional set-up you might be playing h6 anyway.

I also took a look at my most recent record as Black against 1.e4 e5 2.f4 . Playing the d5 and exf4 plan scored a miserable 1 draw from 5 games with 4 losses. Switching to "other stuff", I've had 8 wins and 3 draws from 11, including some very quick wins.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #23 - 06/08/14 at 16:32:06
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 10:59:19:
Over twenty years ago with the help of New in Chess Yearbooks and ChessBase, I adopted that type of defence to the Kings Gambit. It was based in part on a game Ree-Short. It seemed to work well and players with White were unfamiliar with the resulting unbalanced middle game. I'm thinking of the positions where Black still has the pawn on f4, supported by the Bishop from d6, but has given back the pawn with c6, dxc6  Nxc6. So there's 4v2 on both sides of the board. Once the Gallagher book came out, players of the White side had a much better idea on how to play that type of position.


Maybe that game had an influence on Ree's fairly recent NIC magazine piece about the KG.  Addressing a Modern position of the kind you describe, he quoted Shaw to the effect that White's chances are better than engines think, then wrote something like "Like Schlechter, I would be afraid of Black's kingside pawns."
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #22 - 06/08/14 at 12:50:36
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Hadron wrote on 06/08/14 at 01:13:04:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley

The Wagenbach Defence? I think have a pdf of a couple of articles written a time ago. Does it really work? It something I have not seen in all the time I have played the King's Gumboot...
Regards
Hadron.


Does it work? Good question. No one's proved a refutation of it so far at least. And I have a massive plus score with it in all forms of play Smiley . But in this you really do have to know what you're doing – and to have the sort of perverse nature that likes "wasting time" on advancing the rook's pawn to the fifth rank by move 4 or 5 in an open game.
  

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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #21 - 06/08/14 at 12:44:49
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barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

Okay, let's go through them point by point.

Quote:
Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.

Well, sure. So are a lot of other defences.

Quote:
In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack

Not at all. A lot of the Kieseritsky, for instance, is positional in nature; e.g. based long-term defects in Black's pawn structure.

Quote:
White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.

Gallagher actually won quite a lot of games by direct attack. Yes, Black's defences have been worked out since then, but they're still attacks.

Quote:
This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.

In my experience White plays the King's Gambit because of its random qualities, which lead to the increased possibility of creative play. King's Gambiteers are quite willing to grind out an endgame if the position requires it.

Quote:
Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

The QGD may well be better – most "proper" openings are better than the King's Gambit. That's not the point of the King's Gambit.

Quote:
The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.  It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

It creates its own problems and possibilities. So do many defences to the King's Gambit. But I've never personally had any trouble playing against the Modern as White.

Quote:
I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.  and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

Some exciting games, some positional games, some ridiculous games, some from-the-opening-into-the-endgame games, all sorts of games.

Quote:
The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!

Well sure. But I think all defences to the King's Gambit are good. So then what?

Quote:
I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Black gets to decide the battleground in most variations of the King's Gambit, and can prepare that battleground quite easily. That's the major difficulty of playing the King's Gambit with White. But as to whether any particular defence is easy for Black in practice depends on how well someone knows – and likes – the resulting positions.

That's why I said "this old chestnut"... the Modern as the antidote to the King's Gambit. Not at all, it's just one possibility out of many for Black, all of which are fine if you know what you're doing. It's like someone else said to me about 1 b3. "Black should play 1...e5 2 Bb2 d6. It's equal." Of course it's equal. Black was equal after 1 b3. So then it all depends how Black wants to set up. Do you want to set up with ...d6 and ...e5 - ?! Maybe you do. I'd rather play something else.

So if the Modern works for you, great. But as a universal panacea... No. Chess is more interesting than that. Personally, I don't want to play those Modern positions as Black (I'd rather play them as White) and I don't want equality and an "easy game" either, supposing such a thing could be proven in practical play. I prefer other variations such as: 2...exf4 3 Nf3 h5!? or 3 Bc4 f5!?, or (in earlier years) 2...Qf6!?. Okay, that last one is pretty dodgy, but in the other two I can certainly control the play, far more so than in the Modern variations, because I know what I'm doing and I like those complicated positions. That's really all that counts in the King's Gambit.
  

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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #20 - 06/08/14 at 11:14:25
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barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
  This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent. 


I wouldn't be sure that's the case. There's a handful of local players of a 1900 to 2100 standard who regularly play the Kings Gambit. I've never quite understood why, but they win enough in a variety of styles to maintain their rating or even just find people not playing e5 against them. In at least some recent games, an approach of playing g5 against them and asking them whether they did really know obscure theory has worked well. By contrast, they have usually seemed comfortable against .. d5, .. exf4 and .. Bd6 plans.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #19 - 06/08/14 at 10:59:19
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.


Over twenty years ago with the help of New in Chess Yearbooks and ChessBase, I adopted that type of defence to the Kings Gambit. It was based in part on a game Ree-Short. It seemed to work well and players with White were unfamiliar with the resulting unbalanced middle game. I'm thinking of the positions where Black still has the pawn on f4, supported by the Bishop from d6, but has given back the pawn with c6, dxc6  Nxc6. So there's 4v2 on both sides of the board. Once the Gallagher book came out, players of the White side had a much better idea on how to play that type of position.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #18 - 06/08/14 at 08:43:29
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Some vague chest beating here.
Barnaby - perhaps you can cite some specific versions to discuss. Otherwise it just gets a bit pantomime: 'yes it is', 'no it isn't'.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #17 - 06/08/14 at 06:33:02
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barnaby wrote on 06/08/14 at 02:56:49:
The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!  Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

Poor John...
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #16 - 06/08/14 at 02:56:49
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.  Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing – which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well – in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) – but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley



You miss the larger points so I will make them again:

~ Play in the Modern is significantly different than all the tries with ....g5.  In the g5 lines white always gets a direct attack, even if it is not theoretically potent.  White never gets an attack in the Modern and is instead always defending themselves.  This work on the psychological level because White plays the King Gambit to attack, not defend or play some position endgame where they try to squeeze an opponent.  Hell if that's what they wanted they'd play the QGD, which is better for that type of game for White.

~ The modern does not allow any of the thematic ideas that bleed across all the other variations.  It is easy to play as Black and not easy to play as White.

I get that you Kings Gambit people love your opening.  and I bet you gets lots of exciting games with it.

But really, playing that is a last round money game that ones needs to win is quite foolish and makes Black's job a whole lot easier.

The recent Shaw book has not one line that White can equalize comfortably ... not one!  Filled with easy solutions for Black to not only get equality but completely snuff out Whites aggressive tendencies.

So, please, punt that all you want.  I welcome the easy game as Black, which Black gets to decide upon, not White.

Smiley
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #15 - 06/08/14 at 01:13:04
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/07/14 at 19:09:15:
I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley

The Wagenbach Defence? I think have a pdf of a couple of articles written a time ago. Does it really work? It something I have not seen in all the time I have played the King's Gumboot...
Regards
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #14 - 06/07/14 at 19:09:15
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barnaby wrote on 06/07/14 at 16:35:37:
And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.  Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.


This old chestnut again?!?

As I've said on here before, 3...d5 (or 2...d5 if you prefer that move order) is only good if you like the sort of positions that arise and know what you're doing – which is the same with any defence to the King's Gambit.

Personally, I have a excellent score as White against the Modern (and have only ever lost once). More pertinently, so did GM Gallagher when he was playing the King's Gambit. Mainly because Black (needlessly) returns the extra pawn and cedes central dominance to White.

Yes, Black has pluses as well – in particular, active development and a potentially dangerous kingside pawn majority (if it's handled correctly) – but anyone who thinks this is a straightforward, easy position for Black to play is just asking for trouble.

If you do well with it, fine, but it's not for everyone. Especially given that you can pretty much choose any defence against the King's Gambit and play it for the win if you know what you're doing. I usually opt for 3...h5!?. Smiley
  

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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #13 - 06/07/14 at 16:35:37
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/07/14 at 10:29:35:
While it may be unpragmatic, it is also very Romantic. Most of the people I know who play the King's Gambit do so for psychological reasons. They love the swashbuckling style and the pressure gambit play puts on their opponent. So, regardless of the objective merits of the opening, it will always have supporters playing it in tournaments.



Romance? Swashbuckling?

These are words right out of a bad blurb on the back cover of a cheap paperback novel.  Words such as these are used to market and sell products.

Just because something always has supporters does not make it good.  Smiley

And really, there is zero pressure on Black when they eschew the whole thing and play the Modern defense.  Zero. Black has easy path to equality and can even play for a win.

Good and sound opening do not people to defend them in web forums.  In the pantheon of opening choices, the King's Gambit is a lessor choice for modern play and no matter how many stubborn players (or perhaps addicted?!) keep punting it, it remains aweaker choice to play for an opening advantage as White.

This is a chess opening theory site and current opening theory and praxis here clearly demonstrates this opening to be lacking.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #12 - 06/07/14 at 16:02:56
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In my experience that description rather fits 1.d4 d5 2.c4 and ...dxc4 at some point, when White allows Black to defend the pawn with ...b5 by playing e2-e4.
So Long Live the Queen's Gambit (when played like a real gambit)!
  

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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #11 - 06/07/14 at 10:29:35
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While it may be unpragmatic, it is also very Romantic. Most of the people I know who play the King's Gambit do so for psychological reasons. They love the swashbuckling style and the pressure gambit play puts on their opponent. So, regardless of the objective merits of the opening, it will always have supporters playing it in tournaments.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #10 - 06/07/14 at 03:56:47
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RdC wrote on 06/07/14 at 00:26:21:
[quote author=4C504C040 link=1401641235/8#8 date=1401933980]

It's a valid point that the defender only need to know and understand one line, whereas the attacker needs to know all plausible defences.




This makes it a most unpragmatic opening to essay in Swiss system events. 

Too much homework for too little return in light of there being better and easier ways to play for an advantage as White.
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #9 - 06/07/14 at 00:26:21
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Hadron wrote on 06/05/14 at 03:06:20:
I play at 2100 ICCF ELO level and I can't say it has caused me too much worries..


In over the board chess at G/90 or equivalents, it can be a good practical choice to face up to Kings Gambit players and ask them just how well they know the main lines. Presuming they aren't able to consult a book or an engine, they don't always get it right.

It's a valid point that the defender only need to know and understand one line, whereas the attacker needs to know all plausible defences.

  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #8 - 06/05/14 at 03:06:20
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Despite what the Tin Foil hat brigade thinks  Cheesy,  the 'Kings Gambit' is here to stay...I play at 2100 ICCF ELO level and I can't say it has caused me too much worries..
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #7 - 06/04/14 at 18:58:19
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MartinC wrote on 06/04/14 at 09:26:13:
Nice Smiley Fairly minimal utility for human play I suspect as the pieces are so very much harder for us to coordinate properly than it is for a computer.

Like having that knight on f5 saved by the fork on e7 on move 26 - that isn't luck when a comp does it!


And Black's Queen was immobile from move 12 to 34!!
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #6 - 06/04/14 at 09:26:13
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Nice Smiley Fairly minimal utility for human play I suspect as the pieces are so very much harder for us to coordinate properly than it is for a computer.

Like having that knight on f5 saved by the fork on e7 on move 26 - that isn't luck when a comp does it!
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #5 - 06/03/14 at 16:16:56
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/02/14 at 13:25:23:
For those not in on the joke, both sides use the same book in this competition. So no one wins because their book (as a whole) is better. Second, the book is only 8 moves long, so Komodo's queen trade for 3 pieces was found OTB (hmmm...not computer prep).


True....
  
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Re: C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #4 - 06/02/14 at 13:25:23
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For those not in on the joke, both sides use the same book in this competition. So no one wins because their book (as a whole) is better. Second, the book is only 8 moves long, so Komodo's queen trade for 3 pieces was found OTB (hmmm...not computer prep).
  
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Re: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #3 - 06/02/14 at 03:16:58
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barnaby wrote on 06/01/14 at 18:34:48:
Stockfish needs a better opening book.   Smiley


nTCEC used 8 move positions/books. This position was given to Stockfish and Komodo defended it. But won as white.
  
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Re: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #2 - 06/01/14 at 23:47:29
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barnaby wrote on 06/01/14 at 18:34:48:
Stockfish needs a better opening book.   Smiley


If you try to use an engine to search for novelties at an early stage of the game, which could still be possible in the Kings Gambit, to what extent is the engine just repeating what it has been told as "book" and to what extent is it being original but is nevertheless reproducing the prejudices of its programmers? Not totally relevant to the Kings Gambit except for the 2. .. Nc6, 3. .. f5 variation, but how has it been balanced to prefer or avoid isolated pawn positions?
  
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Re: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
Reply #1 - 06/01/14 at 18:34:48
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Stockfish needs a better opening book.   Smiley

  
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C35: Long Live Kings Gambit!!
06/01/14 at 17:47:15
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I always considered King's Gambit is playable at all levels. The reason why I still play in correspondence chess level. By the rise of chess programs the opening diminished. But now there has been a revelation. Top guns in computer chess now cleanly access the position and understand the intricacies involved in it, even when it involves Q vs Minor pieces. Don't believe ?
In the recent nTCEC tournament which was won by Stockfish, lost the last game of the final against Komodo 7x. And man what a game was that!!. SF was completely outplayed in this game. Have a look.

[Event "TCEC Season 6 - Superfinal"]
[Site "http://tcec.chessdom.com"]
[Date "2014.05.30"]
[Round "64"]
[White "Komodo 7x"]
[Black "Stockfish 170514"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3164"]
[ECO "C35"]
[EventDate "2014.05.19"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteElo "3155"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 Be7 4. Nc3 Bh4+ 5. Ke2 d6 6. d4 Bg4 7. Bxf4 Nc6 8.
Qd3 Nge7 9. Kd2 Bf6 10. e5 Bf5 11. exf6 Bxd3 12. fxe7 Qd7 13. Bxd3 Nxe7 14.
Raf1 O-O 15. Kc1 a6 16. h4 b5 17. h5 b4 18. Nd1 Nd5 19. Bd2 a5 20. Nh4 c6 21.
Rf3 Nc7 22. Nf5 Ne6 23. d5 cxd5 24. Nde3 Nc5 25. Nxd5 Nxd3+ 26. Rxd3 Rae8 27.
Rf1 f6 28. h6 g6 29. Nfe3 f5 30. Nc4 f4 31. Rxf4 Rxf4 32. Bxf4 Re1+ 33. Kd2
Re6 34. b3 Qd8 35. Kc1 g5 36. Rg3 Rg6 37. Be3 Kf7 38. Rf3+ Ke6 39. Ncb6 Rxh6
40. Bd4 g4 41. Rf1 Qh4 42. Nc7+ Ke7 43. Kb2 Qg5 44. a4 bxa3+ 45. Kxa3 Qg6 46.
c4 a4 47. Ncd5+ Ke8 48. Re1+ Kd8 49. Re7 Qd3 50. Bc3 1-0

Here its annotated by John Shaw.



http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=2904
« Last Edit: 06/01/14 at 23:25:00 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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