Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry? (Read 8820 times)
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 262
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #22 - 05/26/16 at 17:39:54
Post Tools
For sure, it's better 10...a6 in the "classical Milner-Barry" (the var with not Nbd2) than grabbing the second pawn.

For example, for me in blitz games it's difficult for Black to survive if you pick up the second pawn, even if it's not clear how White can win, but the attack is tremendous. If you play a6 then it's White who has to prove something (and usually try to overextend).

My 2 cents.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1902
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #21 - 05/26/16 at 15:51:26
Post Tools
Random typo. He almost certainly meant white having enough compensation Smiley
(Since he's the one material down and all!)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
applechess
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 08/31/15
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #20 - 05/26/16 at 15:42:21
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 06/25/14 at 14:26:19:
New in Chess Yearbook 111 contains an article by David Smerdon himself on the 9 Nbd2 variation. His current conclusion is that Sadler's b6 idea more or less puts the line out of business, but welcomes attempts to rehabilitate it, quoting a number of games from his earlier experiences.

As regards the refutation of the older 9. Nc3 variation, the engines reckon that Black has almost enough compensation in the lines with .. Qxe5, but not in the lines with .. a6. In the .. a6 lines it's still possible for Black to go wrong, but it's his game to lose.

I am somewhat confused. In all big databases White has in the old 10.Nc3 variation a considerable lower winning percentage against the line 10...a6 compared to the line 10...Qxe5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
applechess
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 08/31/15
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #19 - 05/26/16 at 11:51:30
Post Tools
I agree that the line 9...Bc5 is best for Black. Furthermore I think that the only try to get some (doubtful) compensation for White is 10.b4

[Event "Classic"]
[Site "Queenstown NZL"]
[Date "2006.01.19"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Smerdon, David"]
[Black "Zhao, Zong Yuan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2421"]
[BlackElo "2461"]
[ECO "C02"]
[EventDate "2006.01.15"]
[PlyCount "68"]
[EventType "team-tourn"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bd7 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Qb6 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Nbd2 Bc5 10.b4 Nxf3+ 11.Nxf3 Qxb4 12.Ng5 Qa4 13.Qh5 Nh6 14.Nxh7 Rxh7 15.Bxh7 Qg4 16.Qh3 Qxh3 17.gxh3 Bc6 18.Rb1 Kd7 19.Rb3 Rh8 20.Bd3 Nf5 21.Bxf5 exf5 22.Kg2 Ke6 23.Rg3 d4+ 24.Kg1 g6 25.Ba3 Bb6 26.Bd6 Rh4 27.Rd1 Re4 28.Kf1 Bb5+ 29.Kg2 Be2 30.Rd2 Ba5 31.Rxe2 Rxe2 32.Bc5 Bc3 33.a3 a5 34.Kf3 Re1 0-1

but instead of 12.Ng5 White should perhaps prefer 12.Rb1

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2726
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #18 - 10/24/15 at 15:34:11
Post Tools
Finally had a look at the Smerdon article.

As he says the engines tend to underestimate Whites play all the time, that Bishop on the a3-f8 diagonal is always incredibly annoying.

So 13...b6!! does seem an incredibly deep move, ignoring all engine suggestions and playing human chess.

All that said I really hope White can improve somewhere, the ideas behind this Nbd2 line are so natural and dangerous its hard to believe its finished yet.

For instance 10.b4!? maybe, although that doesnt convince me at the moment either  Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
applechess
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 08/31/15
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #17 - 08/31/15 at 14:52:49
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 06/25/14 at 01:18:02:
gewgaw wrote on 06/24/14 at 20:31:47:
If you don't mind asking, what's the refutation of 9.Nc3 and 9.Nxd4


the ...a6 stuff. Do not take the extra pawn Qxe5

I agree in so far as from a practical point of view, 10.Nxd4 Qxe5 is giving White too much initiative in many lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2726
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #16 - 06/26/14 at 20:14:56
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 06/25/14 at 14:26:19:
New in Chess Yearbook 111 contains an article by David Smerdon himself on the 9 Nbd2 variation. His current conclusion is that Sadler's b6 idea more or less puts the line out of business, but welcomes attempts to rehabilitate it, quoting a number of games from his earlier experiences.

As regards the refutation of the older 9. Nc3 variation, the engines reckon that Black has almost enough compensation in the lines with .. Qxe5, but not in the lines with .. a6. In the .. a6 lines it's still possible for Black to go wrong, but it's his game to lose.



Very interesting. Its been well known for quite a few years by those in the know that 9.Nbd2 was the only dangerous move.

I actually experienced it first hand when I had to defend it as Black against an amateur player who came up with the move long before it got popular with GM's and IM's.

Will give this NIC article a look as soon as I can!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 660
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #15 - 06/25/14 at 14:26:19
Post Tools
New in Chess Yearbook 111 contains an article by David Smerdon himself on the 9 Nbd2 variation. His current conclusion is that Sadler's b6 idea more or less puts the line out of business, but welcomes attempts to rehabilitate it, quoting a number of games from his earlier experiences.

As regards the refutation of the older 9. Nc3 variation, the engines reckon that Black has almost enough compensation in the lines with .. Qxe5, but not in the lines with .. a6. In the .. a6 lines it's still possible for Black to go wrong, but it's his game to lose.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1992
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #14 - 06/25/14 at 01:18:02
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 06/24/14 at 20:31:47:
If you don't mind asking, what's the refutation of 9.Nc3 and 9.Nxd4


the ...a6 stuff. Do not take the extra pawn Qxe5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 621
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #13 - 06/24/14 at 20:31:47
Post Tools
If you don't mind asking, what's the refutation of 9.Nc3 and 9.Nxd4
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 401
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #12 - 06/24/14 at 19:02:55
Post Tools
OldGrizzly wrote on 06/21/14 at 15:11:05:
9.Nc3 - yes. 9.Nbd2 - not yet.


9.Nbd2† is not anything to look forward to at all.† †PTF 4† covers 9... Bc5 which pretty much leads to the same thing:† "Why in the world would you want to play this gambit?" When you are end up trying desperately to find a draw ?† †That line is no fun.


[Event "ch-USA w 2014"]
[Site "Saint Louis USA"]
[Date "2014.05.16"]
[Round "7.1"]
[White "Melekhina, A."]
[Black "Zatonskih, A."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2151"]
[BlackElo "2469"]
[PlyCount "144"]
[EventDate "2014.05.08"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 cxd4 7. cxd4 Bd7 8. O-O
Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Bc5 10. Nxd4 Bxd4 11. Nf3 Ne7 12. Nxd4 Qxd4 13. Re1

This seems much better than anything suggested above -

13... Rc8 14. Be3 Qxe5 15. Bxa7 Qd6 16. Bd4 f6 17. Qh5+
Kf8  18.Rac1 (18. Rad1 e5) 18... e5 19. Rxc8+ Bxc8 20. Bc3 g6 21. Qh6+ Kf7

This just looks bad for White.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 244
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #11 - 06/24/14 at 07:30:18
Post Tools
Melekhina's 14.Rb1 looks much more to the point than Smerdon's lunatic 14.Be3, which just stresses the meaning of 13...b6: that pawn is not en prise when Black takes on b2.
It does not seem to me that she, or Zatonskih had made any special preparation. White had a typical compensation, and ruined it at middlegame.
I think the critical line is 13...Nc6 (Zatonskih played 13...Rc8) when after 14.Be3 Qxe5 the bishop does not have the d4 square available after taking on b6. But this is hardly the end of the world- factly, white may even consider not taking on b6 at all. Stockfish suggests 15.Bd2!? when Black is two pawns up, but white has a lot of piece activity. Some careful analysis is apparently needed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4125
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #10 - 06/21/14 at 21:48:40
Post Tools
Apparently this was about seven weeks after Sadler played it.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 904
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #9 - 06/21/14 at 21:23:55
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 06/21/14 at 21:19:21:
I notice that Melekhina (she of the video) faced 13...b6 from Anna Zatonskih last month (0-1).


really...intestresting...we can try to get that game  Smiley
  

ďLearn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.Ē† - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 904
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: C02: Does Sadlerís TN 13..b6!! kill Milner-Barry?
Reply #8 - 06/21/14 at 21:22:54
Post Tools
For a good summary (my pov) of these lines....the not so much watched video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL2s4cfmE4s
  

ďLearn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.Ē† - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo