Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best answer to KIA? (Read 27992 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #12 - 03/09/18 at 17:00:18
Post Tools
Like Kylemeister, I'd caution against getting too ambitious as Black after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 e5 4.d3.  A tempo is worth something in chess, after all.  

2...Nc6!? is interesting, but I'd be most concerned with 3.d4, which is clearly the most natural move.  I wouldn't at all assume that a White player who begins with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 is necessarily looking for a King's Indian Attack against everything; that's a very flexible move order that could allow a Reti, Catalan, etc.  

Anyhow after 2...Nc6 3.d4, my gut feeling is that 3...Nf6 is at least somewhat dubious.  I'm not sure which of 3...Bg4 or 3...Bf5 Black should prefer offhand, though I notice that 3...Bf5 4.Bg2 Nb4!? is an interesting idea that's been played by some strong players.  I'd probably investigate that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 627
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #11 - 03/09/18 at 08:33:40
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 03/08/18 at 23:24:25:
I first became aware of the King's Indian Attack out of the French defense, 1e4 e6 2d3 d5 3Nbd2. However, the line is analyzed under ECO A08. Here is a pretty main line:

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. O-O Be7 5. d3 O-O 6. Nbd2 c5 7. e4 Nc6 8. Re1 b5 9. e5!? Nd7 10. Nf1.

Many games have been played from this position. Black plays on the queen side and white on the king side:  10...a5 11h4 b4, etc. Certainly a line to debate! However I was surprised to see that black has fared pretty well in a few games with 10...f6. 10...f6!? greatly changes the character of the game. What do you think? Has this been addressed in literature? Does anyone have experience with this line? 

I got the position with 10.Nf1 once and what did my opponent play? Well, he played 10...f6!? and I was on unknown territory... Emms considers this move in "Starting Out: King's Indian Attack", with 11.exf6 Nxf6 12.Bf4! Stockfish approves of 11...Nxf6, but Emms thinks maybe 11...Bxf6!? is better. He offers hardly any analysis. Dvoretsky in "Opening Preparation" gives 11...Bxf6 12.h4! Nb6 13.Ng5!. 11...Bxf6 has been played most, with better results for Black and by better players.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 773
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #10 - 03/08/18 at 23:24:25
Post Tools
I first became aware of the King's Indian Attack out of the French defense, 1e4 e6 2d3 d5 3Nbd2. However, the line is analyzed under ECO A08. Here is a pretty main line:

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. O-O Be7 5. d3 O-O 6. Nbd2 c5 7. e4 Nc6 8. Re1 b5 9. e5!? Nd7 10. Nf1.

Many games have been played from this position. Black plays on the queen side and white on the king side:  10...a5 11h4 b4, etc. Certainly a line to debate! However I was surprised to see that black has fared pretty well in a few games with 10...f6. 10...f6!? greatly changes the character of the game. What do you think? Has this been addressed in literature? Does anyone have experience with this line? 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 773
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #9 - 03/08/18 at 22:49:25
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 08/05/14 at 10:58:09:
You can go for broke with 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 . The idea is to follow up the natural 3. Bg2 with 3. .. e5 . In a manner of speaking you now have the white pieces and can play whatever is your favourite anti-Pirc. On 3. d4 you have a Catalan v Chigorin type of position.


I was recently thinking along those lines. 3Bg2 is natural. A friend of mine once said that when you play g3 (or g6), you don't have to think about your next move. But here white can stop 3...e5 by playing 3d4. This can lead to a somewhat novel Catalan, where black has played an early Nc6. For example:  1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6!? 3. d4 e6 4. Bg2 Nf6 5. O-O Bd6!? Black contemplates ...e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4928
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #8 - 08/05/14 at 17:24:41
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 08/05/14 at 16:56:19:
Even in a reverse Austrian, if they play c4 as white, you just take it and compare to the corresponding position from an English against e5, f5 systems.


Offhand I would think it might be critical to aim for a reversed version of an old idea (I recall it from Keene and Botterill) of after 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. dc Qa5 7. Bd3 Qxc5 8. Qe2 meeting Be3 with ...Qb4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 868
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #7 - 08/05/14 at 16:56:19
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 08/05/14 at 16:05:53:

Might not be the best idea to play, say, a reversed Austrian ...


I was rather more thinking of a Reversed 150. If White uses the extra tempo to do something useless, castling long and hacking down the h file could have its points. Otherwise just play Be6/g4, Nf6, Bd6, Qd7 and 0-0-0 or 0-0 depending on where White pieces go. 

Even in a reverse Austrian, if they play c4 as white, you just take it and compare to the corresponding position from an English against e5, f5 systems.

There aren't that many examples, Hector of Sweden gives it a try from time to time. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4928
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #6 - 08/05/14 at 16:05:53
Post Tools
RdC wrote on 08/05/14 at 10:58:09:
You can go for broke with 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 . The idea is to follow up the natural 3. Bg2 with 3. .. e5 . In a manner of speaking you now have the white pieces and can play whatever is your favourite anti-Pirc.


Might not be the best idea to play, say, a reversed Austrian ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 868
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #5 - 08/05/14 at 10:58:09
Post Tools
TN wrote on 08/01/14 at 17:55:38:
I was wondering, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3, what do you think is the easiest way for Black to equalise while still keeping decent winning chances?


You can go for broke with 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 . The idea is to follow up the natural 3. Bg2 with 3. .. e5 . In a manner of speaking you now have the white pieces and can play whatever is your favourite anti-Pirc. On 3. d4 you have a Catalan v Chigorin type of position.

The most flexible players will not always play 1. Nf3 always intending a KIA. Some at least will be looking for transpositions to mainstream QP openings. This has to influence Black's choice of defence. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #4 - 08/05/14 at 07:38:47
Post Tools
yolocounty wrote on 08/04/14 at 22:41:47:
I thought the system with ...c5, ...e6, ...d5, ...Nf6, and ...g6/...Bg7 was supposed to provide good chances for Black.

White has to be careful because he can hang a pawn with e4-e5 at the wrong time, and Black just moves pawns on the Queenside until White is actually threatening something (if ever), by which time he probably has the queenside busted open anyway.


True, this is also an annoying system to play against.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
yolocounty
Junior Member
**
Offline


Yes, I push wood, why
do you ask?

Posts: 63
Location: Yolo County
Joined: 07/02/14
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #3 - 08/04/14 at 22:41:47
Post Tools
I thought the system with ...c5, ...e6, ...d5, ...Nf6, and ...g6/...Bg7 was supposed to provide good chances for Black.

White has to be careful because he can hang a pawn with e4-e5 at the wrong time, and Black just moves pawns on the Queenside until White is actually threatening something (if ever), by which time he probably has the queenside busted open anyway.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Devilman
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 28
Joined: 07/09/09
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #2 - 08/04/14 at 18:09:52
Post Tools
As a novice KIA player i don't like these systems:
  • 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 because it doesn't connect well with my anti-grunfeld system (1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Qa4+)
  • 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 because i feel like White doesn't have a clear target if Black doesn't play c5 or brings the white bishop out (so i usually switch to a catalan with 4.d4 instead of 4.d3)

So if you think you can have winning chanches in the black side of the closed catalan go for it, but i suggest you to aim to a murky grunfeld setup.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #1 - 08/02/14 at 13:04:43
Post Tools
I think ideas with ...d6 for Black in general is less promising for White in KIA set-ups, than the lines with an early ...d5 (and ...e6). Objectively, Black is fine in those too, but they are what White wants to play against, and what e.g. Fischer liked playing against.

I usually meet the KIA set-ups when playing French and Sicilian. I that case I play ...c5 (French) or have already played it. With your particular move order, Black can consider ...c6 and maybe play for ...e5 instead. Or after 3. d4, have a regular position that shouldn't be better for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Best answer to KIA?
08/01/14 at 17:55:38
Post Tools
I was wondering, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3, what do you think is the easiest way for Black to equalise while still keeping decent winning chances? I realise it's a very general question and in many ways a matter of taste, but an idea of what is most unpleasant for KIA advocates to face would be really helpful.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo