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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best answer to KIA? (Read 9351 times)
FreeRepublic
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #27 - 03/30/18 at 17:44:37
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I bought GM McDonald's book (Kindle) on the KIA published in 2014. GM analysis of games is bound to be highly valuable. That is especially the case here, as the KIA is more about plans than about specific moves. Still, there are some specific lines that I would have liked to have seen. For example after:
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 Bd6 6. Bg2 Nge7 7. O-O O-O 8.Re1
I would have liked to seen coverage of 8...Qc7, which has been recommended by John Watson.

The book has eight chapters which address both the 1e4 and 1Nf3 move orders. It could have contained an additional chapter addressing the KIA in double king pawn openings. There is the Smyslov system 1e4 e5 2Nc3 Nf6 3g3, and the and Gleck system 1e4 e5 2Nf3 Nc6 3Nc3 Nf6 4g3

Although white can hope for an advantage from the KIA, I think white should be psychologically prepared for an equal middle game, while bypassing tons of theory.

I formerly thought there were various "complete answers" to the KIA. By that I mean that particular moves completely neutralized the KIA when played against the French, or the Caro-Kan, or the Sicilian, or even from the 1Nf3 move order. Perhaps, but perhaps not! On closer inspection, it seems that repertoire books for black promise "equal chances" after a select mover order. That may be OK for white, who may sensibly favor his chances in a familiar position.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #26 - 03/27/18 at 16:08:22
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/27/18 at 14:15:34:
[quote author=44697A696567666D7C080 link=1406915738/24#24 date=1520887102]
I have a 2010 version of Stockfish. It tends to overestimate black's chance, having a "show me" attitude towards white's impending king side attack. By the time it sees it, it's too late!


Engines do seem a bit disparaging of the Kings Indian Attack. Whilst it's very easy for White to set up the basic attacking structure, I'm unconvinced there's a mate at the end of it. That implies the more difficult play of trying to maintain a grip in the centre and queenside rather than a kitchen sink approach against the King.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #25 - 03/27/18 at 14:15:34
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Laramonet wrote on 03/12/18 at 20:38:22:
I played the KIA years ago for 6 or 7 seasons. The one group of lines I almost never faced was the main line you describe with c5 / b5 / a5. Ntirlis does a reasonable job of presenting them from Black's perspective in Playing 1.d4 d5. I've not had a chance to try it yet from Black's point of view but he is generally going for Bb7 / Qc7 / Rfc8 / Qd8, meeting the mentioned h pawn push with h5 h6.


Thanks. I haven't bought the Ntirlis book on the Queen's Gambit, or the Emms or McDonald books on the KIA. It's as much about disk space as about money with my older ASUS Ultrabook.

The idea you describe, with Rfc8 and Qd8 sounds like a good resource for black. At some point the black king will probably need some defensive help.

I have a 2010 version of Stockfish. It tends to overestimate black's chance, having a "show me" attitude towards white's impending king side attack. By the time it sees it, it's too late!

The positions are clearly rich. I imagine many players choose the KIA hoping to get this line. Yet I think black players can get chances too.

A completely different approach has been recommended for black in some repertoire books: d5 c6 Bf5 or Bg4. It's kind of a Slav/Caro, rather than a French/QGD, way of playing things. It's an answer, but not THE answer, IMO, - a matter of taste.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #24 - 03/12/18 at 20:38:22
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:31:14:
TD wrote on 03/09/18 at 08:33:40:
I got the position with 10.Nf1 once and what did my opponent play? Well, he played 10...f6!? ...


Thanks for the excellent reply. For me, the f6 lines are new and seem murky. I guess I can't complain. Nobody said chess was easy. How did you do in your game?

The main lines, 10...a5 etc., are definitely interesting. However from the black perspective, I'm put off by white's favorable results in general, and by the (recent?) idea of racing the h pawn. So I'm not sure my study time will pay dividends.

Thanks for mentioning the Emms book from 2005. He is such a good author that I'm tempted to by the kindle edition. However Neil McDonald wrote a KIA book in 2014, also published by Everyman. It has all the same chapters, except the last chapter has been split into two. Both books seem to be from the white perspective, based upon the chapter selection. Have you seen the McDonald book?


Hi Free Republic,
   I played the KIA years ago for 6 or 7 seasons. The one group of lines I almost never faced was the main line you describe with c5 / b5 / a5. Ntirlis does a reasonable job of presenting them from Black's perspective in Playing 1.d4 d5. I've not had a chance to try it yet from Black's point of view but he is generally going for Bb7 / Qc7 / Rfc8 / Qd8, meeting the mentioned h pawn push with h5 h6.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #23 - 03/12/18 at 20:26:10
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:00:18:
Like Kylemeister, I'd caution against getting too ambitious as Black after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 e5 4.d3.  A tempo is worth something in chess, after all. 

2...Nc6!? is interesting, but I'd be most concerned with 3.d4, which is clearly the most natural move.  I wouldn't at all assume that a White player who begins with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 is necessarily looking for a King's Indian Attack against everything; that's a very flexible move order that could allow a Reti, Catalan, etc. 

Anyhow after 2...Nc6 3.d4, my gut feeling is that 3...Nf6 is at least somewhat dubious.  I'm not sure which of 3...Bg4 or 3...Bf5 Black should prefer offhand, though I notice that 3...Bf5 4.Bg2 Nb4!? is an interesting idea that's been played by some strong players.  I'd probably investigate that.


As this variation leads to a Chigorin Defence (by transposition), it is analysed by authors presenting this opening like Morozevich, Williams or Burgess (for White). E.g. Morozevich likes here 3...Bf5 4.Bg2 e6, with Nb4 to follow (considering immediate 4...Nb4 premature).
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #22 - 03/12/18 at 02:20:31
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/11/18 at 22:32:46:
When my black opening was the QGD Tarrasch, I had a lot of success with a reversed Saemisch.

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6
  • 4.d4 e6 5.c4 Nf6 6.cxd5, transposing to the main line Tarrasch, was the invariable choice of strong players.


Alternatively it can be a Grunfeld in reverse if Black wants to give that a try with 4. .. cxd4. Some GMs have claimed that a reverse Grunfeld is nothing to be scared of. Unlike reversed Kings Indians, I suspect the tempo will matter.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #21 - 03/11/18 at 22:32:46
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When my black opening was the QGD Tarrasch, I had a lot of success with a reversed Saemisch.

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6
  • 4.d4 e6 5.c4 Nf6 6.cxd5, transposing to the main line Tarrasch, was the invariable choice of strong players.
  • 4.O-O e5 5.d3 f6 6.Nbd2, with a rather negative position for white, was the invariable choice of "other" players. Nbd2 is a compliant move, but it is also the only one I have ever faced! Almost anything else would be better, e.g. 6.e4 d4 7.Nh4, 6.c4 d4 7.e3, 6.Re1 Be6 7.Nc3, 6.a3, 6.c3, etc.

These days my repertoire is completely different, but one blitz variation I get a lot is the Elephant Gambit declined(!), e.g. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3! d5!! 4. d3!!! d4 5. Ne2 Bd6 6. g3 c5 7. Bg2 Nc6 8. O-O h6!? So far nobody has played what must be the critical move 9. Nh4. I guess they don't know too much about the King's Indian. Anyway 9...g5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 Qc7 12. f4 gxf4 13. gxf4 O-O-O is quite sharp, not sure who is better without a few tests. That wBg2 is not exactly sleeping! Stockfish prefers 11...Qd7 which in fact is the first idea I had, but later I concluded the wPf5 is a red herring. Playing against the wBc1 seems stronger.

I have been thinking about RdC's reversed Pirc suggestion. After 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 e5 4.O-O I don't think just any old reversed white system works equally well. In particular, black has to be alert for a sequence c2-c4, ...d5-d4, b2-b4!?. And white has another idea in d2-d4, ...e5-e4, Nf3-e5!?.

I decided 4...f6 might be best. We should compare with variations after 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4. A very recent blitz game went 4...f6 5.d4 e4 6.Ne1 h5 7.h4 g5 8.hxg5 h4 9.gxh4 Rxh4 10.Nf3?? exf3 11. exf3 Qd6 12. f4 fxg5 13. Re1+ Kf7 14. fxg5!! Qh2+ 15. Kf1 Bh3 16. Qf3+ Kg7 17. g6 Qh1+ 18. Ke2 Re8+ 19. Kd3 Nb4+ 20. Kc3 Qxe1+ 21. Bd2 Qe6 and 0-1 shortly. Black's early attack with 7...g5 was hardly convincing, but it did induce a panic from white. In retrospect, simply 6...f5 was good, when white has castled too soon in this Gurgenidze structure.

RdC also suggested the reversed 150 Attack. Both 4...Be6 5.d4 e4 6.Ng5 and 4...Nf6 5.d4 e4 6.Ne5 are interesting for white.

Maybe black could try a reversed Yugoslav idea from the 1970s: 4...Be7 5.c4 dxc4 (5...d4 6.b4!) 6.Qa4 Kf8!? 7.Qxc4 h5. Fischer gave this Kf1 idea for white in My 60 Memorable Games, but I believe it was just for blitz.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #20 - 03/11/18 at 22:19:11
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CanadianClub wrote on 03/11/18 at 21:44:50:
I White wants blood in this kind of positions... well... Be7 plus g5 plus 0-0-0 and all the danger goes to White safety. Usual set-up with e6-d5-Nf6-c5.

This plan can be a lot of fun. But I have the impression it's not really good if White plays the line with Qe2 instead of Nbd2. The c4 break (typical of the Qe2 lines) gains in strength when Black's king is on the queenside. a3 and b4 can follow to rip the western front open. In many move orders White can also slow Black down on the kingside if he gets in h4 (and if ...h6, h4-h5) before ...g5 is played.

So maybe Black needs something else against the Qe2 lines to have a complete repertoire here.
  

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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #19 - 03/11/18 at 21:44:50
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I always was reluctant to play/enter in KIA positions with Black (I play the French), due to some quick kills (complete annihilation would be more close to what happened) in my first days as a Frenchie.

But recently I entered "by error" in two KIA via Nf3-g3 move order (first by error, second more or less voluntarily) and got very decent positions with Black. I White wants blood in this kind of positions... well... Be7 plus g5 plus 0-0-0 and all the danger goes to White safety. Usual set-up with e6-d5-Nf6-c5.

Sources I use in this lines:

- Watson in his videos for ICC (Sharpen Your Chess sense series) on the French
- Niclas Huschenbeth videos for chess24 (his series against 1.Nf3)

Another set-up I like a lot is 1.e4 e6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.Ngf3 b6 5.g3 dxe4 (via French move order).

Salut,

PD: As someone said before, one of the key points of 1.Nf3 is to be flexible. If someone only uses this to get a KIA against 1.Nf3 d5, then he/she is very predictable.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #18 - 03/11/18 at 18:25:39
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JEH wrote on 03/11/18 at 13:09:40:
Well it's the secret to dealing with a lot of these reversed openings, it's to play the set up White would play against, in this case, the KID, i.e. d5/c5/Nc6/d5

White shouldn't let you get this set up, but KIA player purists will be complicit in allowing it, but the extra tempo does not help White Shocked, took me many many years to realise that. The KID with a tempo up is a marketing ploy for KIA books. The position is equal, but it's certainly winnable for Black.


I noticed that one of Christof Sielecki's criticisms of the book The Fianchetto Solution was that it doesn't give due attention to that way of playing by Black.
https://youtu.be/NgqUmSVbdFk?t=2870

I would think that 6. e4 d4 7. Ne1 looks ?!.  On a historical note, Uhlmann long ago gave 7. Nbd2 h5 and 7. a4 g5 as leading to unclear positions.

I believe Dvoretsky wrote to the effect that in the position after 7. Nbd2 Nf6 8. Nc4 Qc7 9. a4 0-0, White's extra tempo is of marginal value and he should perhaps play 10. b3.  (Cf. the old book line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 0-0 6. Be2 e5 7. 0-0 Nbd7 8. d5 Nc5 9. Qc2 a5 10. Bg5 h6 11. Be3 b6.)

6. c4 is an alternative, of course.

« Last Edit: 03/11/18 at 19:57:09 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #17 - 03/11/18 at 13:09:40
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TN wrote on 08/01/14 at 18:55:38:
I was wondering, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3, what do you think is the easiest way for Black to equalise while still keeping decent winning chances?




Really, you want me to give away the biggest secret about the KIA from my experience of having played it for over 30 years  Smiley



Well it's the secret to dealing with a lot of these reversed openings, it's to play the set up White would play against, in this case, the KID, i.e. d5/c5/Nc6/d5

White shouldn't let you get this set up, but KIA player purists will be complicit in allowing it, but the extra tempo does not help White Shocked, took me many many years to realise that. The KID with a tempo up is a marketing ploy for KIA books. The position is equal, but it's certainly winnable for Black.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #16 - 03/09/18 at 18:33:31
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:31:14:
However Neil McDonald wrote a KIA book in 2014, also published by Everyman. It has all the same chapters, except the last chapter has been split into two. Both books seem to be from the white perspective, based upon the chapter selection. Have you seen the McDonald book?

I only looked at it briefly, but I don't think he mentions 10...f6. At amazon you can find the book and see which games he analyses.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #15 - 03/09/18 at 18:19:15
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:31:14:
TD wrote on 03/09/18 at 08:33:40:
I got the position with 10.Nf1 once and what did my opponent play? Well, he played 10...f6!? ...

Thanks for the excellent reply. For me, the f6 lines are new and seem murky. I guess I can't complain. Nobody said chess was easy. How did you do in your game?

I lost, but not due to the opening.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #14 - 03/09/18 at 17:55:41
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:31:14:
the (recent?) idea of racing the h pawn


Nah; pushing the pawn down to h6 is part of one of White's classic plans, and doing it right away (moves 12 and 13) got some attention e.g. from Uhlmann when he covered A08 for the first edition of ECO (1979).
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #13 - 03/09/18 at 17:31:14
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TD wrote on 03/09/18 at 08:33:40:
I got the position with 10.Nf1 once and what did my opponent play? Well, he played 10...f6!? ...


Thanks for the excellent reply. For me, the f6 lines are new and seem murky. I guess I can't complain. Nobody said chess was easy. How did you do in your game?

The main lines, 10...a5 etc., are definitely interesting. However from the black perspective, I'm put off by white's favorable results in general, and by the (recent?) idea of racing the h pawn. So I'm not sure my study time will pay dividends.

Thanks for mentioning the Emms book from 2005. He is such a good author that I'm tempted to by the kindle edition. However Neil McDonald wrote a KIA book in 2014, also published by Everyman. It has all the same chapters, except the last chapter has been split into two. Both books seem to be from the white perspective, based upon the chapter selection. Have you seen the McDonald book?
  
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