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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best answer to KIA? (Read 5311 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #34 - 04/01/18 at 19:14:01
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Thanks for contributing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 f5.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #33 - 04/01/18 at 08:39:16
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/31/18 at 18:58:34:
That’s a great point. Also after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d3 black has 3...f5, when best might be 4.d4!?.


You could also play the move order 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3, although again, how to meet 3. .. f5 is a question.

Alternatively there's 1.e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 when g3 is respected. Also there's 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 . In both cases though the Knight's on c3 and Black can play .. d5, so it's not really a KIA type of position.

Many years ago if I intended to play the KIA from a 1. e4 move order against both the Sicilian and French, I concluded that a "normal" approach was necessary against everything else.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #32 - 03/31/18 at 18:58:34
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That’s a great point. Also after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d3 black has 3...f5, when best might be 4.d4!?. After 1.e4 e5, the best “KIA” type position that white can get is 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5, then an early d2-d3. The closed Ruy Lopez is like the King’s Indian in this way: the QR and QB are already “developed” on their original squares, and the play revolves around positional pressure on the center.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #31 - 03/31/18 at 17:25:33
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One thing about e.g. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3 Nf6 4. d3 is that it could lead to Black playing a respected KIA-vs.-French line (1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 de with ...Bc5 and ...e5) with an extra tempo.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #30 - 03/31/18 at 16:59:48
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/30/18 at 23:39:01:
As far as I am aware, no other book on the KIA covers g3 lines in the double-king pawn openings.
Probably before your time, but Larry Evans (1975) The Chess Opening for You did cover this. I don't have the book in front of me, but it began 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 and now I think it was 3.g3. He also covered 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 (and 1.e4 Nf6 2.d3). One nice thing about the KIA from a 1.e4 move order is that you can replace it with sharper lines one opening at a time. The only opening where white cannot reach a KIA is the Scandinavian, and this is what Evans recommended for his black repertoire! After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 white also has to be ready for the Latvian Gambit (which I think Evans covered) and the Elephant Gambit (which I think he did not).
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #29 - 03/30/18 at 23:39:01
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mn wrote on 03/30/18 at 19:55:45:
I don't blame McDonald for covering the Glek or g3 Vienna, as those are very much outside the KIA topic, and really aren't even all that similar (IMO), aside from the presence of a Bishop on g2.


I'm not really blaming McDonald. As far as I am aware, no other book on the KIA covers g3 lines in the double-king pawn openings. And it is true that some the variations in the Glek and Smyslov do not feel like the KIA. However some do, at least to me. From ChessPublishing:
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. Be3
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 Bc5 5. Bg2 d6 6. d3 O-O 7. Na4 Bb6 8. O-O h6 9. Nxb6 axb6 10. Re1 Bg4 11. h3 Be6 12. b3 Qd7 13. Kh2
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6.

Many of the lines McDonald presents have a KIA feel, but some do not.

Against the Dutch he presents 1Nf3 f5 2d3 Nf6 3e4 fxe 4dxe or 3...d6 4exf Bxf5 5d4

In the chapter on the French we have games that start:
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Qe2 Nc6 4. Nf3 e5 5. g3 dxe4 6. dxe4 Nf6 7. Bg2 Bc5 8. O-O O-O 9. c3 a5
and
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Qe2 dxe4 4. dxe4 b6 5. Nd2 Ba6 6. Nc4 Nf6 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. e5 

White can fianchetto against the French, Caro-Kan, and Sicilian, and in double-king pawn openings. I think some readers would want coverage of all the preceding.

It may be that full coverage of the Smyslov and Glek lines would be too much of a distraction. It's a judgment call that perhaps can only be made by the author.

To give credit where it is due, McDonald provides full coverage of all responses to 1Nf3 (where white intends the KIA). Truly, the scope of the KIA is vast. That is some of it's appeal. From 1Nf3, it may be the only opening you need for white. From 1e4, it is almost the only opening you need.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #28 - 03/30/18 at 19:55:45
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I don't blame McDonald for covering the Glek or g3 Vienna, as those are very much outside the KIA topic, and really aren't even all that similar (IMO), aside from the presence of a Bishop on g2.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #27 - 03/30/18 at 17:44:37
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I bought GM McDonald's book (Kindle) on the KIA published in 2014. GM analysis of games is bound to be highly valuable. That is especially the case here, as the KIA is more about plans than about specific moves. Still, there are some specific lines that I would have liked to have seen. For example after:
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 Bd6 6. Bg2 Nge7 7. O-O O-O 8.Re1
I would have liked to seen coverage of 8...Qc7, which has been recommended by John Watson.

The book has eight chapters which address both the 1e4 and 1Nf3 move orders. It could have contained an additional chapter addressing the KIA in double king pawn openings. There is the Smyslov system 1e4 e5 2Nc3 Nf6 3g3, and the and Gleck system 1e4 e5 2Nf3 Nc6 3Nc3 Nf6 4g3

Although white can hope for an advantage from the KIA, I think white should be psychologically prepared for an equal middle game, while bypassing tons of theory.

I formerly thought there were various "complete answers" to the KIA. By that I mean that particular moves completely neutralized the KIA when played against the French, or the Caro-Kan, or the Sicilian, or even from the 1Nf3 move order. Perhaps, but perhaps not! On closer inspection, it seems that repertoire books for black promise "equal chances" after a select mover order. That may be OK for white, who may sensibly favor his chances in a familiar position.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #26 - 03/27/18 at 16:08:22
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/27/18 at 14:15:34:
[quote author=44697A696567666D7C080 link=1406915738/24#24 date=1520887102]
I have a 2010 version of Stockfish. It tends to overestimate black's chance, having a "show me" attitude towards white's impending king side attack. By the time it sees it, it's too late!


Engines do seem a bit disparaging of the Kings Indian Attack. Whilst it's very easy for White to set up the basic attacking structure, I'm unconvinced there's a mate at the end of it. That implies the more difficult play of trying to maintain a grip in the centre and queenside rather than a kitchen sink approach against the King.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #25 - 03/27/18 at 14:15:34
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Laramonet wrote on 03/12/18 at 20:38:22:
I played the KIA years ago for 6 or 7 seasons. The one group of lines I almost never faced was the main line you describe with c5 / b5 / a5. Ntirlis does a reasonable job of presenting them from Black's perspective in Playing 1.d4 d5. I've not had a chance to try it yet from Black's point of view but he is generally going for Bb7 / Qc7 / Rfc8 / Qd8, meeting the mentioned h pawn push with h5 h6.


Thanks. I haven't bought the Ntirlis book on the Queen's Gambit, or the Emms or McDonald books on the KIA. It's as much about disk space as about money with my older ASUS Ultrabook.

The idea you describe, with Rfc8 and Qd8 sounds like a good resource for black. At some point the black king will probably need some defensive help.

I have a 2010 version of Stockfish. It tends to overestimate black's chance, having a "show me" attitude towards white's impending king side attack. By the time it sees it, it's too late!

The positions are clearly rich. I imagine many players choose the KIA hoping to get this line. Yet I think black players can get chances too.

A completely different approach has been recommended for black in some repertoire books: d5 c6 Bf5 or Bg4. It's kind of a Slav/Caro, rather than a French/QGD, way of playing things. It's an answer, but not THE answer, IMO, - a matter of taste.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #24 - 03/12/18 at 20:38:22
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:31:14:
TD wrote on 03/09/18 at 08:33:40:
I got the position with 10.Nf1 once and what did my opponent play? Well, he played 10...f6!? ...


Thanks for the excellent reply. For me, the f6 lines are new and seem murky. I guess I can't complain. Nobody said chess was easy. How did you do in your game?

The main lines, 10...a5 etc., are definitely interesting. However from the black perspective, I'm put off by white's favorable results in general, and by the (recent?) idea of racing the h pawn. So I'm not sure my study time will pay dividends.

Thanks for mentioning the Emms book from 2005. He is such a good author that I'm tempted to by the kindle edition. However Neil McDonald wrote a KIA book in 2014, also published by Everyman. It has all the same chapters, except the last chapter has been split into two. Both books seem to be from the white perspective, based upon the chapter selection. Have you seen the McDonald book?


Hi Free Republic,
   I played the KIA years ago for 6 or 7 seasons. The one group of lines I almost never faced was the main line you describe with c5 / b5 / a5. Ntirlis does a reasonable job of presenting them from Black's perspective in Playing 1.d4 d5. I've not had a chance to try it yet from Black's point of view but he is generally going for Bb7 / Qc7 / Rfc8 / Qd8, meeting the mentioned h pawn push with h5 h6.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #23 - 03/12/18 at 20:26:10
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/18 at 17:00:18:
Like Kylemeister, I'd caution against getting too ambitious as Black after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 e5 4.d3.  A tempo is worth something in chess, after all. 

2...Nc6!? is interesting, but I'd be most concerned with 3.d4, which is clearly the most natural move.  I wouldn't at all assume that a White player who begins with 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 is necessarily looking for a King's Indian Attack against everything; that's a very flexible move order that could allow a Reti, Catalan, etc. 

Anyhow after 2...Nc6 3.d4, my gut feeling is that 3...Nf6 is at least somewhat dubious.  I'm not sure which of 3...Bg4 or 3...Bf5 Black should prefer offhand, though I notice that 3...Bf5 4.Bg2 Nb4!? is an interesting idea that's been played by some strong players.  I'd probably investigate that.


As this variation leads to a Chigorin Defence (by transposition), it is analysed by authors presenting this opening like Morozevich, Williams or Burgess (for White). E.g. Morozevich likes here 3...Bf5 4.Bg2 e6, with Nb4 to follow (considering immediate 4...Nb4 premature).
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #22 - 03/12/18 at 02:20:31
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/11/18 at 22:32:46:
When my black opening was the QGD Tarrasch, I had a lot of success with a reversed Saemisch.

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6
  • 4.d4 e6 5.c4 Nf6 6.cxd5, transposing to the main line Tarrasch, was the invariable choice of strong players.


Alternatively it can be a Grunfeld in reverse if Black wants to give that a try with 4. .. cxd4. Some GMs have claimed that a reverse Grunfeld is nothing to be scared of. Unlike reversed Kings Indians, I suspect the tempo will matter.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #21 - 03/11/18 at 22:32:46
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When my black opening was the QGD Tarrasch, I had a lot of success with a reversed Saemisch.

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 c5 3.Bg2 Nc6
  • 4.d4 e6 5.c4 Nf6 6.cxd5, transposing to the main line Tarrasch, was the invariable choice of strong players.
  • 4.O-O e5 5.d3 f6 6.Nbd2, with a rather negative position for white, was the invariable choice of "other" players. Nbd2 is a compliant move, but it is also the only one I have ever faced! Almost anything else would be better, e.g. 6.e4 d4 7.Nh4, 6.c4 d4 7.e3, 6.Re1 Be6 7.Nc3, 6.a3, 6.c3, etc.

These days my repertoire is completely different, but one blitz variation I get a lot is the Elephant Gambit declined(!), e.g. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3! d5!! 4. d3!!! d4 5. Ne2 Bd6 6. g3 c5 7. Bg2 Nc6 8. O-O h6!? So far nobody has played what must be the critical move 9. Nh4. I guess they don't know too much about the King's Indian. Anyway 9...g5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 Qc7 12. f4 gxf4 13. gxf4 O-O-O is quite sharp, not sure who is better without a few tests. That wBg2 is not exactly sleeping! Stockfish prefers 11...Qd7 which in fact is the first idea I had, but later I concluded the wPf5 is a red herring. Playing against the wBc1 seems stronger.

I have been thinking about RdC's reversed Pirc suggestion. After 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 e5 4.O-O I don't think just any old reversed white system works equally well. In particular, black has to be alert for a sequence c2-c4, ...d5-d4, b2-b4!?. And white has another idea in d2-d4, ...e5-e4, Nf3-e5!?.

I decided 4...f6 might be best. We should compare with variations after 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4. A very recent blitz game went 4...f6 5.d4 e4 6.Ne1 h5 7.h4 g5 8.hxg5 h4 9.gxh4 Rxh4 10.Nf3?? exf3 11. exf3 Qd6 12. f4 fxg5 13. Re1+ Kf7 14. fxg5!! Qh2+ 15. Kf1 Bh3 16. Qf3+ Kg7 17. g6 Qh1+ 18. Ke2 Re8+ 19. Kd3 Nb4+ 20. Kc3 Qxe1+ 21. Bd2 Qe6 and 0-1 shortly. Black's early attack with 7...g5 was hardly convincing, but it did induce a panic from white. In retrospect, simply 6...f5 was good, when white has castled too soon in this Gurgenidze structure.

RdC also suggested the reversed 150 Attack. Both 4...Be6 5.d4 e4 6.Ng5 and 4...Nf6 5.d4 e4 6.Ne5 are interesting for white.

Maybe black could try a reversed Yugoslav idea from the 1970s: 4...Be7 5.c4 dxc4 (5...d4 6.b4!) 6.Qa4 Kf8!? 7.Qxc4 h5. Fischer gave this Kf1 idea for white in My 60 Memorable Games, but I believe it was just for blitz.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #20 - 03/11/18 at 22:19:11
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CanadianClub wrote on 03/11/18 at 21:44:50:
I White wants blood in this kind of positions... well... Be7 plus g5 plus 0-0-0 and all the danger goes to White safety. Usual set-up with e6-d5-Nf6-c5.

This plan can be a lot of fun. But I have the impression it's not really good if White plays the line with Qe2 instead of Nbd2. The c4 break (typical of the Qe2 lines) gains in strength when Black's king is on the queenside. a3 and b4 can follow to rip the western front open. In many move orders White can also slow Black down on the kingside if he gets in h4 (and if ...h6, h4-h5) before ...g5 is played.

So maybe Black needs something else against the Qe2 lines to have a complete repertoire here.
  

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