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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best answer to KIA? (Read 8403 times)
RdC
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #42 - 05/15/18 at 09:40:43
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trw wrote on 05/14/18 at 11:41:22:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 c5 4. 0-0 Nc6 5. d3 e5


I would prefer 5. d4 as I think the reversed Grunfeld has far more teeth than a reversed Kings Indian. Once upon a time the Exchange variation with Nf3 was considered a mistake, as in 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. e4 Nxc3 7. bxc3. This was because of the pressure that can be exerted on c3 and d4 with .. Bg4, .. c5, .. Qa5. Nowadays the "modern" Exchange is considered a dangerous weapon as accurate treatments for White have been devised. These work rather less well with a missing tempo.


  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #41 - 05/14/18 at 17:55:07
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trw wrote on 05/14/18 at 11:41:22:
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 c5 4. 0-0 Nc6 5. d3 e5 It's now like a KID reversed but it's not clear how white is going to get an attack or use the extra tempo 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. e4 d4 8. Nc4 Qe7 9. a4 and already white feels like its suffering. This does not score well in my database despite being objectively okay. White is tough to play and black is well... pretty straightforward.


Earlier I mentioned about that transposing to an old major line with colors reversed if Black plays 9...0-0.  Certainly that's not the only move, but in any case I'm not sure how it is straightforward for Black and tough for White etc. ...
  
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trw
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #40 - 05/14/18 at 11:41:22
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JEH wrote on 03/11/18 at 13:09:40:
TN wrote on 08/01/14 at 18:55:38:
I was wondering, after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3, what do you think is the easiest way for Black to equalise while still keeping decent winning chances?


Well it's the secret to dealing with a lot of these reversed openings, it's to play the set up White would play against, in this case, the KID, i.e. d5/c5/Nc6/d5

White shouldn't let you get this set up, but KIA player purists will be complicit in allowing it, but the extra tempo does not help White Shocked, took me many many years to realise that. The KID with a tempo up is a marketing ploy for KIA books. The position is equal, but it's certainly winnable for Black.


I completely agree with this. Moreover, while its often equal I would PREFER black. Let's see a specific line though:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. g3 d5 3. Bg2 c5 4. 0-0 Nc6 5. d3 e5 It's now like a KID reversed but it's not clear how white is going to get an attack or use the extra tempo 6. Nbd2 Be7 7. e4 d4 8. Nc4 Qe7 9. a4 and already white feels like its suffering. This does not score well in my database despite being objectively okay. White is tough to play and black is well... pretty straightforward.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #39 - 05/04/18 at 10:34:00
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Thanks for this. I often play 6 b3 iso 6 a4, so it's natural for me to try 6 a4 a5 7 b3. In the 6 b3 line I often end up feeling unsure where to develop my Nb1, but I notice that in the 6 a4 line White often goes Nb1-a3, then c2-c3, with the potential for a nice squeeze ... Meanwhile, I notice that after 6 a4 a5, Epishin plays 7 Bf4 (which without a4/..a5 in seems to score terribly) and always wins!

But after 6 a4 a5 7 Re1 d5, how does White avoid (8)Nc3, transposing to the stodgy line? [Edit. Ah, I see perhaps? -- 8 Nbd2, I imagine ...]

« Last Edit: 05/04/18 at 16:35:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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mn
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #38 - 05/04/18 at 09:48:34
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Check out Burgess' "Cunning Repertoire" book! I don't have access to it currently, but basically, the idea is that we annoy Black with the "threat" of a5-a6, and when Black answers to this, we try to push e2-e4 for a Fianchetto Pirc-sort of thing. After 6...a5, IIRC 7 Nc3 d5 is meant to a bit stodgy, so Burgess was suggesting 7 Re1!? and 7 b3!? instead.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #37 - 05/04/18 at 08:46:23
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Quote:
You could also do the 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 g3 g6 3 Bg2 Bg7 4 0-0 0-0 5 d4 d6 6 a4!? thingy.

In all my databases this scores very well for White! Can anyone summarise the theory on it (such as there might be in such an 'anti-theory' line), or indicate where there's any writing on it?
  
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mn
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #36 - 05/04/18 at 07:36:34
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You could also do the 1 Nf3 Nf6 2 g3 g6 3 Bg2 Bg7 4 0-0 0-0 5 d4 d6 6 a4!? thingy.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #35 - 05/04/18 at 04:34:30
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I've played the KIA on and off since I was 15 so over 50 years now. Also used it in correspondence from time to time as computers don't really understand it. As white I always found the Kings Indian Defence set-up most annoying. White really has to transpose into a mainline of the fianchetto variations to get an advantage which is often not where KIA players want to go.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #34 - 04/01/18 at 19:14:01
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Thanks for contributing 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 f5.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #33 - 04/01/18 at 08:39:16
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/31/18 at 18:58:34:
That’s a great point. Also after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d3 black has 3...f5, when best might be 4.d4!?.


You could also play the move order 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3, although again, how to meet 3. .. f5 is a question.

Alternatively there's 1.e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 when g3 is respected. Also there's 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 . In both cases though the Knight's on c3 and Black can play .. d5, so it's not really a KIA type of position.

Many years ago if I intended to play the KIA from a 1. e4 move order against both the Sicilian and French, I concluded that a "normal" approach was necessary against everything else.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #32 - 03/31/18 at 18:58:34
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That’s a great point. Also after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d3 black has 3...f5, when best might be 4.d4!?. After 1.e4 e5, the best “KIA” type position that white can get is 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5, then an early d2-d3. The closed Ruy Lopez is like the King’s Indian in this way: the QR and QB are already “developed” on their original squares, and the play revolves around positional pressure on the center.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #31 - 03/31/18 at 17:25:33
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One thing about e.g. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. g3 Nf6 4. d3 is that it could lead to Black playing a respected KIA-vs.-French line (1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. Ngf3 Nc6 5. g3 de with ...Bc5 and ...e5) with an extra tempo.
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #30 - 03/31/18 at 16:59:48
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/30/18 at 23:39:01:
As far as I am aware, no other book on the KIA covers g3 lines in the double-king pawn openings.
Probably before your time, but Larry Evans (1975) The Chess Opening for You did cover this. I don't have the book in front of me, but it began 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 and now I think it was 3.g3. He also covered 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 (and 1.e4 Nf6 2.d3). One nice thing about the KIA from a 1.e4 move order is that you can replace it with sharper lines one opening at a time. The only opening where white cannot reach a KIA is the Scandinavian, and this is what Evans recommended for his black repertoire! After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 white also has to be ready for the Latvian Gambit (which I think Evans covered) and the Elephant Gambit (which I think he did not).
  
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #29 - 03/30/18 at 23:39:01
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mn wrote on 03/30/18 at 19:55:45:
I don't blame McDonald for covering the Glek or g3 Vienna, as those are very much outside the KIA topic, and really aren't even all that similar (IMO), aside from the presence of a Bishop on g2.


I'm not really blaming McDonald. As far as I am aware, no other book on the KIA covers g3 lines in the double-king pawn openings. And it is true that some the variations in the Glek and Smyslov do not feel like the KIA. However some do, at least to me. From ChessPublishing:
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. Be3
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 Bc5 5. Bg2 d6 6. d3 O-O 7. Na4 Bb6 8. O-O h6 9. Nxb6 axb6 10. Re1 Bg4 11. h3 Be6 12. b3 Qd7 13. Kh2
and
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. g3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6.

Many of the lines McDonald presents have a KIA feel, but some do not.

Against the Dutch he presents 1Nf3 f5 2d3 Nf6 3e4 fxe 4dxe or 3...d6 4exf Bxf5 5d4

In the chapter on the French we have games that start:
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Qe2 Nc6 4. Nf3 e5 5. g3 dxe4 6. dxe4 Nf6 7. Bg2 Bc5 8. O-O O-O 9. c3 a5
and
1. e4 e6 2. d3 d5 3. Qe2 dxe4 4. dxe4 b6 5. Nd2 Ba6 6. Nc4 Nf6 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. e5 

White can fianchetto against the French, Caro-Kan, and Sicilian, and in double-king pawn openings. I think some readers would want coverage of all the preceding.

It may be that full coverage of the Smyslov and Glek lines would be too much of a distraction. It's a judgment call that perhaps can only be made by the author.

To give credit where it is due, McDonald provides full coverage of all responses to 1Nf3 (where white intends the KIA). Truly, the scope of the KIA is vast. That is some of it's appeal. From 1Nf3, it may be the only opening you need for white. From 1e4, it is almost the only opening you need.
  
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mn
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Re: Best answer to KIA?
Reply #28 - 03/30/18 at 19:55:45
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I don't blame McDonald for covering the Glek or g3 Vienna, as those are very much outside the KIA topic, and really aren't even all that similar (IMO), aside from the presence of a Bishop on g2.
  
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