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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move (Read 6328 times)
Keano
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #23 - 08/22/15 at 19:38:26
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Bf4 is the worst of Whites options
  
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tipau
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #22 - 08/20/15 at 22:08:53
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If the reason you don't like 8.Bf4 is because of 8...Nh5 9.Bc1 Nf6 then maybe you could play 8.Nbd2 (when bishop on c1) and 9.Bf4 (when the bishop is on d2) with the idea 9...Nh5 10.Bc1 Nf6 11.Nbd2?

I doubt most of your opponents will go for the repetition, so another approach could be that you try 8.Bf4 (when the bishop starts on c1) and only change to Nbd2 lines when your opponent repeats the position once.
  

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Keano
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #21 - 08/20/15 at 21:15:31
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could take 3 volumes to explain it, challenging question all the same.
  
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Marc Benford
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #20 - 07/13/15 at 09:02:10
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Sorry for bumping this 12 months old thread, but I was wondering if there was some possibilities of good transpositions between the line where White's Bishop is still on c1 and the line where Black inserts a Bishop check to force White's Bishop to be on d2?

Because I really like having an "economical" and "cost-effective" repertoire. But with still playing strong variations.
So I would like to find two lines (one when my Bishop is still on c1, and one when it gets on d2) which most of the time transpose into each other.

I was looking at this:
- When White's Bishop is still on c1: 8. b3 b6 9. Rd1 Bb7 10. Nc3 Rc8 11. e4
- When White's Bishop is on d2: 9. Rd1 b6 10. b3 Bb7 11. Nc3 Rc8 12. e4
and then in both cases White will play Bf4 and Black won't be able to play ...Nh5 anymore since White would just retreat the Bishop on e3 without blocking any Pawn (since the Pawn is already on e4)
So both lines transpose into each other, right?

And if instead Black chooses to put his Bishop on a6:
- When White's Bishop is still on c1: 8. b3 b6 9. Rd1 Ba6 11. Bf4
- When White's Bishop is on d2: 9. Rd1 b6 10. b3 Ba6 11. Bf4
Here again they both seem to transpose into each others apparently...

But I have a feeling that something is wrong somewhere...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #19 - 08/09/14 at 21:02:05
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gauss wrote on 08/08/14 at 17:33:28:
I don't think b3 makes a lot of sense if black throws in Bb4+-Be7.


Actually there are some interesting ideas in there, some associated with a2-a4, though I'm not sure White can get an advantage.  But I don't think that White can get an advantage against best play by Black.
  
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gauss
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #18 - 08/08/14 at 17:33:28
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I don't think b3 makes a lot of sense if black throws in Bb4+-Be7.
  
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fling
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #17 - 08/08/14 at 17:01:23
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Well, as mentioned, a good reply to 8. Rd1 is ...Ne4, because the rook has nothing to do on d1 in a Stonewall formation. 8. b3 has of course also been played a lot. The problem is that it doesn't develop a piece. Even though it supports c4, as shown, the pawn on c4 can be defended tactically, or even sacrificed in some of the continuations. Also, the pawn on b3 hinders the queen from going to a4, which may often be a good move once Black has played ...Rc8.

Thus, all moves have drawbacks. What I would look for if I were you would be the resulting pawn structures and the sharpness of the variations etc. And yes, I think you should try the moves (all four) to see how you like them.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #16 - 08/08/14 at 00:24:57
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Thank you all for your answers.

It seems that 8. Rd1 and 8. b3 are the most solid/positional/slow/closed/quiet/strategic moves.

I would prefer to be able to play the same thing both against 4...Be7 and against  4...Bb4+ 5. Bd2 Be7
So it seems that I can already eliminate 8. Nbd2

8. Bf4 can be easily neutralized by 8... Nh5 9. Bc1 Nf6 (therefore we can't only learn 8. Bf4 alone, we have to also learn another move in case Black plays 8... Nh5) so I think I won't choose this one either.

So I will either choose 8. b3 or 8. Rd1
I don't know which one yet. I will try them both in some games and will see which one I like best.
  
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gauss
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #15 - 08/05/14 at 22:05:20
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I can't imagine any result except a draw in a high level correspondence game from the position after gxf4. I looked at the white wins the top 100 games in my database (not very many games) and I noticed that there was only one game white won where black played Qc7 and a quick c5 (Caruana-Nielsen, 2010). Sure, if black wants to make it interesting than he can avoid the draw, but if black wants a draw than there is little white can do about it.
After Rxd5, I don't see how the game could be anything but a draw (unless one side blunders). All the rooks will be traded off and there will be little to play for with the opposite colored bishops.

I appear to have overestimated whites chances. Black score 50.0% in the position after gxf4, and, in the top 100 games, white only scores +13 -10 =77. The reason for the lack of draws is because of tries like Nf6-d5, which leads to a somewhat unbalanced game. After 13...Qc7 14.e3 Rad8, 91% of the games are drawn and somehow white only scores 49.3%
  
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MartinC
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #14 - 08/05/14 at 21:18:40
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Definitely not that drawn at move 13 though Smiley That's what I was very gently objecting to in principle. 13.. Nf6 is down to 50 per cent draws say.

More drawish after Rxd5 it seems Wink (Quite astonishing frankly!). Small sample and some prearranged draws it seems mind - maybe you'd get 25/60/15 with a bunch more games. A grinder at club level could do quite nicely I suspect.

Not that 10 percent wins, 90 percent draws is anything for white to complain about - its the usual 55 per cent Smiley
  
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gauss
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #13 - 08/05/14 at 14:22:56
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If black continues with 13...Qc7 14.e3 Rad8, then after the most common move 15.Rac1 black can play 15...c5 16.d5 exd5 17.Nxd5 Bxd5 18.Rxd5, and 96% (!) of the games to reach this position have been drawn. The only person who managed to lose with black was an 1800. White has alternatives on move 15 of course, but I don't think they give white much. Most of white's wins come from him being allowed to play a3 and b4 when black dallies with c5.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #12 - 08/05/14 at 09:22:23
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If you're accepting a slightly worse position with no winning chances by move 14 then you'll crack under persistent pressure quite a bit more than ninety percent of the time Smiley
(Presumably it isn't half that drawish though. Only a few pieces gone and quite an unbalanced pawn structure.).
  
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fling
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #11 - 08/04/14 at 17:25:10
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gauss wrote on 08/04/14 at 17:15:08:
After 8.Rd1 b6 9.Bf4 Bb7 10.Nc3 dxc4 11.Nd2 Nd5 12.Nxc4 Nxf4 13.gxf4 white has no real advantage. This might be slightly unpleasant for black as he has no winning chances, but objectively it should be 10% white wins 90% draw.


This is the line that seems best for Black. Theoretically, it looks like White is not better, I totally agree.

Anyway, I forgot to mention that even if 8. Bf4 would be best, 8 ...Nh5 is most likely best met by 9. Bc1. If Black plays 9 ...Nf6, it means White has to find something else to avoid a repetition. On the other hand, if you only prepare 8. Nbd2, you need to answer the bishop check with something else than Bd2 (which is likely best), or else be move ordered out of your set-up!
  
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gauss
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #10 - 08/04/14 at 17:15:08
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After 8.Rd1 b6 9.Bf4 Bb7 10.Nc3 dxc4 11.Nd2 Nd5 12.Nxc4 Nxf4 13.gxf4 white has no real advantage. This might be slightly unpleasant for black as he has no winning chances, but objectively it should be 10% white wins 90% draw.
  
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fling
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Re: Closed Catalan: Main Line - White's 8th move
Reply #9 - 08/04/14 at 16:59:46
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hicetnunc wrote on 08/04/14 at 16:02:23:
RdC wrote on 08/04/14 at 15:10:00:
hicetnunc wrote on 08/04/14 at 14:38:57:
The main splitting points are where you develop your bishop (Bb2 or Bf4) and your Knight (Nd2 or Nc3).


Another one is whether you are intending to play e4. Usually that involves Nd2 and then Rd1 either before or after e4. Black doesn't have to take on e4 as being pushed back by e4-e5 may not be so bad.


Isn't e4 always an idea for white ? I mean, is there a plan without e4 at some stage ?


It is, but depending on the timing, it may lead to very different structures and variations.
  
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