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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov (Read 10490 times)
Keano
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #14 - 03/18/15 at 15:14:56
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If the worry is anti-Sicilians I agree that 2...e6 is the way to go.

There are still various Anti's there of course, but avoiding the Bb5 systems is a big achievement in my view.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #13 - 01/09/15 at 18:40:20
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I just wanted to thank everyone participating in this thread. Since I always find it kind of unsatisfying when a thread like this ends without any information what the OP now will make of the replies, in case anyone is interested:

I bought Emms Move by move book. With it I will figure out if the Taimanov is really the opening I think it is and if I'm willing to play it for at least a few years. If it really is that opening I will learn the anti-sicilians necessary after 2...e6 and build myself a Taimanov repertoire with some more sources ...
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #12 - 12/30/14 at 18:39:04
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Ah, I meant the second one.
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #11 - 12/30/14 at 18:37:59
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Which Jones book are we talking about? The Starting Out one or "How to beat the Sicilian defence"?
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #10 - 12/30/14 at 18:36:03
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Speaking of the KIA vs. 2...e6, here's something that floated into my head:  I wonder if there's a clear issue with Black playing in a Scheveningen way, so to speak.  I recall that once upon a time Fischer apparently thought that Sherwin should have equalized with that against him, and a few decades later ECO had it as leading to equality.  I see that in his book Jones used his game against Mah which went 3...Nc6 4. g3 d6 5. Bg2 Nf6 6. 0-0 Be7 7. Re1 0-0 8. c3 Bd7 9. d4 cd 10 cd d5 11. e5 Ne4 12. Nc3 Nxc3 13. bc, but I wonder if White can claim an advantage there.  (It reminded me of 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. c3 Nf6 4. Be2 e6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 0-0 7. Bf1 Nc6 8. d4 cd 9. cd d5 10. e5 Ne4 11. Nc3 Nxc3 12. bc Bd7 13. Bd3 which has been considered +=, but one might think that's a better version for White ...)
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #9 - 12/30/14 at 17:07:14
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gramsci wrote on 12/29/14 at 18:39:19:
I know I'm the only one but I'm more worried about the KIA after  2...e6 than the Rossolimo afeter 2...Nc6.

I doubt you're the only one. Fortunately there's excellent coverage of the main line of the KIA against ...e6 from Black's perspective in Playing the French by Aagaard and Ntirlis. The key is to avoid the Qe2 and c4 line that's popular and recommended by Jones.
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #8 - 12/29/14 at 20:45:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/29/14 at 14:12:39:
Move order depends on which lines you want to play vs. a variety of openings.  For instance, after 1.e4 and 2.Nf3 White can still play 3.c3 or go for a Morra Gambit. 

Personally, I like 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6(!) for its simplicity--you don't have to deal with any Bb5 lines, for one.  I also play 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6.  I played the French for a while, and when White plays random, non-theoretical (but not outright bad) anti-Sicilian stuff, Black often ends up with a slightly improved French Defense. 

Otherwise it's just a matter of which anti-Sicilians you want to play against and which ones you don't, just like any other move order question.  But if you find yourself playing ...e6 systems against things like the Alapin, the Closed, and the Grand Prix, then there's no reason NOT to play 2...e6, cutting out the Rossolimo and some others. 

Regarding the Delchev and Semko book, they only cover anti-Sicilians that start with 2.Nf3, but that's quite a bit!  About half of all of your anti-Sicilian repertoire, considering that 2.c3 will transpose to their lines about 99% of the time.

And regarding Emms' Move by Move book, in my opinion it's the best of that entire series and an incredibly instructive opening manual.  The downside is that it's essentially also a repertoire book, so you may not like all of the variations he offers; oh well.


Thanks for your opinion on Emms book. I also liked other books from the series (Collins on the Tarrasch and McDonald on the Ruy Lopez) and if this one is even better than I should read it.

For some reason the sicilians with all its possible move order issues is giving me some trouble with both colours really. I just find the sicilian really confusing.
I figure from the replies that both move orders should work but 2...e6 is generally regarded as the more convenient move order. Maybe it's also refreshing relearning some anti-sicilians with early e6 and not picking my old g6 systems up again. After all defending against the grand prix attack all the time was maybe the main reason I got annoyed by playing the dragon. I think the last time I played it about 50% of my sicilians were grand prix attacks therefore considering the possible anti-sicilians seems to be a very important factor in choosing a move order ...
  
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gramsci
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #7 - 12/29/14 at 18:39:19
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I know I'm the only one but I'm more worried about the KIA after  2...e6 than the Rossolimo afeter 2...Nc6.
  
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fling
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #6 - 12/29/14 at 14:22:02
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The only problem I have with the move-order 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6, which I play since I want to play the Kan, is that my preferred set-up against the KIA is not perfect. I want to play the Botvinnik/Wedberg/Whatever system against it, but that involves a tempo-loss playing ...e5. Fischer also favored the KIA when Black had committed with ...e6. However, it is still ok despite the tempo-loss, and has been recommended by several authors and played by many strong players. A warning is that Gawain Jones' recommendation against this move-order is pretty poisonous and needs study.

Also, against 3. b3, the same is true, i.e. the set-up with ...e5, ...d6 and ...c5, will involve a tempo loss. But there are other good options to meet 3. b3.

A bonus with the move-order is that it really is universal against the other anti-Sicilians, as Eric mentions, with no worries about the Rossolimo.
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #5 - 12/29/14 at 14:12:39
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Move order depends on which lines you want to play vs. a variety of openings.  For instance, after 1.e4 and 2.Nf3 White can still play 3.c3 or go for a Morra Gambit. 

Personally, I like 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6(!) for its simplicity--you don't have to deal with any Bb5 lines, for one.  I also play 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6.  I played the French for a while, and when White plays random, non-theoretical (but not outright bad) anti-Sicilian stuff, Black often ends up with a slightly improved French Defense. 

Otherwise it's just a matter of which anti-Sicilians you want to play against and which ones you don't, just like any other move order question.  But if you find yourself playing ...e6 systems against things like the Alapin, the Closed, and the Grand Prix, then there's no reason NOT to play 2...e6, cutting out the Rossolimo and some others. 

Regarding the Delchev and Semko book, they only cover anti-Sicilians that start with 2.Nf3, but that's quite a bit!  About half of all of your anti-Sicilian repertoire, considering that 2.c3 will transpose to their lines about 99% of the time.

And regarding Emms' Move by Move book, in my opinion it's the best of that entire series and an incredibly instructive opening manual.  The downside is that it's essentially also a repertoire book, so you may not like all of the variations he offers; oh well.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #4 - 12/29/14 at 09:00:45
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Thanks for your comments so far, yes I am currently sub 2000. I haven't yet decided what to do but I come closer to conclusions.

I wasn't aware that Delchev and Semkov also cover the anti-sicilians. In the table of contents at my chess book distributor it says

"Anti-Sicilian systems
9. The alapin system 3. c3 d5" etc

So I figure lines without 2. Nf3 are not covered? Not that it matters for my purposes, since I have preparations against these systems. I considered buying this book, the safest sicilian or emms move by move book. The 2nd one is hard to get (120€ at amazon e. g.) though.

Still I'd like to know If I can be move ordered by going 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 d6 or if combining 3...d6 vs. the Rossolimo doesn't combine well with e6 systems vs. the open sicilians.
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #3 - 12/28/14 at 19:58:12
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Well its a purely anti sicillian based choice this, so it makes some sense to talk like that Smiley

If nothing else there's some club players who go Bb5/Bb5+ vs everything else, but have to use quite a different sort of set up vs 2 .. e6.

Whatever black is happiest with of course though!
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #2 - 12/28/14 at 18:44:13
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This is a sort of thing I don't get:  saying that a sub-2000(?) player should absolutely prefer 2...e6 because of the Rossolimo being "probably the most dangerous anti-sicilian in a theoretical sense."

Of course one source of information could be Chess Publishing.  I'll just mention that a recent game which looked interesting to me was played by the young 2600+ Dutchie Robin van Kampen as Black, and started 3. Bb5 g6 4. Bxc6 (I recall Kramnik regarding this as "a very strange move") bc 5. 0-0 Bg7 6. Re1 Rb8.
  
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Re: Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
Reply #1 - 12/28/14 at 17:32:35
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Absolutely learn the 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 move order: the Rossolimo is probably the most dangerous anti-sicilian in the theoretical sense.

If you intend to buy a book to learn the Taimanov then I can recommend "The Most Flexible Sicilian" by Delchev and Semkov which starts with the position from 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 i.e. all the new anti-sicilian lines will be covered.

As a bonus, they also cover the Paulsen with 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6!? which gives you more alternatives.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Move order question: Reaching the Taimanov
12/28/14 at 16:38:46
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Hello everyone,

I wasn't sure where to put this thread. This is as much about anti-sicilians as it is about open sicilians. Anyway, the situation is this:
I consider taking up the sicilian again. I played the accelerated dragon for a few years but eventually grew tired of it and started playing the petrov. I don't regret this step because I hadn't played any 1. e4 e5 positions before and learned a big deal. But I think the petrov isn't an opening to play exclusively.
So I'm thinking about picking up a sicilian again. Unfortunately the move order I used is basically the most unflexible possible since I used the hyper accelerated move order. So playing a different sicilian variation needs some work and consideration concerning move orders. At the moment, it is most likely that I would like to play the Taimanov, especially after reading many threads on this board. I checked a number of games and figured it suits my purpose and style better than the sharper sicilians (dragon, najdorf, scheveningen).
Now, I wonder if it is worth it to try and reach it by this move order: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6. The point is that I can use my old repertoire in the beginning reaching the starting point of the accelerated dragon by playing 4...g6 and using my old anti-sicilians. I kept up with the accelerated dragon well enough to be able to get back to it rather quickly. When I digested the new anti-sicilian theory up to this point I can replace 4...g6 by 4. e6 and play the taimanov. From this move order I still have the option to play the kalashnikov or the sveshnikov, classical and four knights as well. Which makes me much more flexible. Even some Scheveningen systems are not impossible to reach.
Against the Grand-Prix and the closed sicilian the queen's knight lands on c6 anyway. The only "new" anti-sicilian I'd have to prepare for is the Rossolimo, right? So the question really is, if learning 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Lb5 is more work than learning a system against the other anti-sicilians based on an early e6 or if the Rossolimo is such a theoretical thread that it's worth avoiding it completely by learning 2...e6. I've never prepared the Rossolimo so I wouldn't know. In case the Rossolimo is less work then what is a sensible set-up? I checked the excerpts of Experts on the Anti-Sicilians and the authors recommend 3...d6. Ist there a problem playing d6 move order wise? As far as I see the resulting structures are different anyway. Is there a serious drawback going with this move. What are good other sources I should take into account? Just asking in case I miss something important here.
I'm interested in any opinions, recommendation etc both concerning the anti-sicilians as well as the whole idea/concept. Thanks in advance Smiley
  
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