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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pirc 150 Specific Move Order (Read 2704 times)
Stigma
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #13 - 02/11/15 at 16:53:02
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Well, if we compare with the Breyer, Black also saves on ...Nbd7 in one move, compared to ...Nc6-b8-d7...

Moreover, in the Pirc positions White often doesn't find the time to get in the centre-strengthening c2-c3 in a good way. White may be compelled to exchange on e5 whereas in a Ruy he would rather have kept the tension. And ...exd4 combined with ...b4 and ...c5 is often just good for Black.

But maybe I shouldn't say much more. I would rather continue to get easy games against White players who approach the Pirc with this passive mindset.  Smiley

Really, if White wants a slow manouvering game akin to the Ruy Lopez, he's better of playing 3.Bd3 or 3.Nd2 intending c3 rather than 3.Nc3 hoping to somehow get in c2-c3 later!
  

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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #12 - 02/11/15 at 16:51:23
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Here's a case with the kind of moves mentioned:  1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 c6 5. Qd2 Bg7 6. h3 O-O
7. Bd3 e5 8. Nf3 Nbd7 9. O-O Re8 10. Rad1 b5 11. dxe5 dxe5 12. Ne2 Qe7 13. Ng3 Bb7 (Wolff-M. Gurevich, Groningen 1993).  According to Gurevich White was soon slightly worse, but would have been equal after 14. c3.
  
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RdC
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #11 - 02/11/15 at 16:23:39
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Stigma wrote on 02/11/15 at 11:47:29:
With ...e5 the position will resemble a Breyer or Zaitsev Ruy where Black has played ...Bg7 in one move instead of ...Be7, ...Re8, ...Bf8, ...Bg7. And if White plays Bh6, exchanges bishops and follows up slowly, he is stuck with the worse bishop for the rest of the game.


A white square Bishop is rarely the worse Bishop in an e4 e5 position, as later it often reappears on the a2 g8 diagonal. An experienced player of the white side of the Ruy isn't that bothered with theoretical tempo counting and you may just be giving them their kind of middle game position. If Black has got the Bishop to g7 in two moves rather than four, then White too has got the White square Bishop to c2 in two, rather than the b5,a4,b3,c2 of the Ruy. In some order, White will keep the game going with N c3 - e2 - g3, Rf1 - e1 with c3 and h3. All the pieces are then on familiar Spanish squares (plus Be3 and Qd2) with the usual ideas available.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #10 - 02/11/15 at 11:47:29
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RdC wrote on 02/11/15 at 11:31:02:
DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 02/11/15 at 07:38:32:
Then even so, I think that Black is fine.


I don't think White needs to play the 150 Attack with any greater ambitions than to retain a good position. So you just rattle out Qd2, Bd3, 0-0 and h3 and ask Black whether he has any threats. If Black gets in e5, he could have played it at move 1 and I doubt his position is much improved by delaying it. If White would like to live more dangerously, plans with 0-0-0, h4 and Bh6 remain possible.

I think this is totally wrong. White's play in the 150 attack depends on juggling concrete strategic threats like the a4 break, e4-e5 and various standard kingside attacks. Slow play often even leaves Black better from the opening. With ...e5 the position will resemble a Breyer or Zaitsev Ruy where Black has played ...Bg7 in one move instead of ...Be7, ...Re8, ...Bf8, ...Bg7. And if White plays Bh6, exchanges bishops and follows up slowly, he is stuck with the worse bishop for the rest of the game.

An early h3 with Bd3 is often a sign White doesn't know any theory and is just making it up at the board. Of course, the Accelerated Classical with Be3 and h3 is a respected line, but there the other bishop usually goes to c4 or e2.
  

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RdC
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #9 - 02/11/15 at 11:31:02
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 02/11/15 at 07:38:32:
Then even so, I think that Black is fine.


I don't think White needs to play the 150 Attack with any greater ambitions than to retain a good position. So you just rattle out Qd2, Bd3, 0-0 and h3 and ask Black whether he has any threats. If Black gets in e5, he could have played it at move 1 and I doubt his position is much improved by delaying it. If White would like to live more dangerously, plans with 0-0-0, h4 and Bh6 remain possible.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #8 - 02/11/15 at 11:23:39
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@DenVerdsligeRejsende:
Nice analysis! I haven't really looked at e4-e5 in these concrete lines before; though I sometimes play the 150 attack as White, I just follow the main line which goes 6.Qd2 b5 7.Bd3 0-0 8.Bh6. White scores very well here, though something like 8...Bg4 or 8...Nbd7 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4 12.Qg5!? Nc5 might be objectively OK for Black. White can also switch to the other plan with 10.a4 b4 11.Ne2 in this last line.

One line where I believe e4-e5 really is a problem is when Black tries to delay ...Bg7, i.e. 4.Be3 c6 5.Nf3 b5?! 6.e5.
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #7 - 02/11/15 at 07:38:32
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I am still not sure about this 5. Nf3 Nbd7 line, but with regards to 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be3 c6!? now White's only way to punish this move order is to bust the centre open with 6. e5 before Black can transpose to a good classical normal Pirc set-up with ...e5 and normal development. Then even so, I think that Black is fine. So White must act very very fast to make this farlig by wrecking the central pawn structure. But I discovered something with help of Stockfisk. Så:



and White is totally busted. At først I discounted this entire line visualising in my head, if Black cannot play 8...Nd7 because 9. e6 looked horrible with pawnstructure like that. Then I went to my ChessBase, turned on Stockfish, and it gave me an absolute shocker: 9...Qb6!! and suddenly White is totally busted.

If this is the critical line that White has to punish the move-order, maybe this 5...c6 is an idea? Maybe White can try to just develop and sack that e5-pawn with 9. Qd2, but to me that looks like absolute bluff, I doubt that White has even sufficient compensation for equality in that line. White just has to do something about the knight hitting the bishop, but 7. Bg5 sacking the e5-pawn also looks like bluff, surely that is at least =+.

Note that if White delays e5 ideas by one or two moves, Black can do ...b4 and after the chain of taking, Black's cxd2 is with check (so White cannot do gxh8).

Then this line looks okay, if not 6. e5, like 6. Qd2, then just 6...0-0 and play for e5, since White's e5 loses its strength if White plays it when Black is well-developed. Or am I missing something still?
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #6 - 02/03/15 at 05:17:32
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In his DVD, Davies gives 5...Nbd7 and then his main line continues with 6. h3. I think at after 6. h3 e5 Black just has a good game after normal Pirc development. But then the critical move to me surely must be 6. e5, when 6...Ng4 looks forced, then 7. Bd2 looks suspicious to me, unless I miss something. If Black can force in ...e5 first it could transpose to a normal position, but 6. e5 seems to stop that.

For example, 5...Nbd7 6. e5 Ng4 7. Bd2 dxe5 8. h3 exd4 9. hxg4 dxc3 10. Bxc3 already looks like something is not right. Or maybe 10...e5 with the idea of 11. Nxe5 Qe7 12. Qe2 Bg7 13. Nxd7 Bxc3+...not sure. 11. Qe2 Qe7 12. 0-0-0 Bg7 and I survive. But this looks very strange and un-Pirc-som, although Black is a pawn up.

The point is that meanwhile Black is one pawn more, 13. Re1 0-0 and taking twice hangs the g4-pawn to ...Bxg4, so 14. g5 Re8 and both sides defend their pawns. 15. Qc4 Nf8 to prevent Qh4 ideas. If White restores materialequality, 16. Bxe5 Bxe5 17. Rxe5 Be6 18. Qf4 Qd6!? and it seems that Black is okay. Either that or I completely lost my mind.

Another try is 6. Bf4, but then 6...dxe5 7. dxe5 Bg7 and if White insists on the obvious-looking 8. e6 to destroy the pawn structure, 8....Qb6!! med the idea of 9. exd7 Bxd7 and I think that White may be lost already. 11. Ne4 f5!; 11. Qd2 Qxb2; 11. Be2 and Black has a choice between 11...Qxf2+ and 11...Qxb2 when I doubt that White can survive here.

This is my critical line:



I have a few problems with the exchange sac line though. Still, there should be improvements all over, I doubt that anyone playing White went this far in their home analysis.

Of course, I could just go 5...Bg7 6. Qd2 Qa5 Smiley
« Last Edit: 02/03/15 at 08:05:45 by DenVerdsligeRejsende »  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #5 - 02/01/15 at 17:50:36
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 01/31/15 at 23:36:42:
I see the 6...Qa5 in the Vigus book, but I guess that the ...b5/...Nbd7 setup in this case ends up too slow because of the e5 push and then exd6 exd6 cause problems because of a check on the e-file as Black is not castled (or ...Ng4 then exd6 Nxe3 Qxe3 sequence with a pain on the e-file)?

While I would play 6...Qa5 if I got this on the board, I've never studied it in detail, since in my current repertoire only the very rare move order I mentioned (4.Be3 c6 5.Nf3) leads to the position. And I'm planning a switch to 4.Be3 a6 or 4.Be3 Bg7 anyway.

The immediate 6...b5 is probably dubious. 6...0-0 intending ...b5 is however a serious and often-played line, albeit one White players are generally happy to face since they have such easy plans (the aggressive Bh6, Bd3 and looking for ways to make e5 and h4 work, or alternatively breaking with a4, 0-0 and play on the queenside - Black must worry about both scenarios).

DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 01/31/15 at 23:36:42:
Also I see this ...a6 plan, but I am not sure if it might cause problems with transpositions with the ...c6 lines. I also see it in til example, page 240 of The Modern Tiger, the new Modern book by Hillarp-Persson. Is this the same plan given by Marin in Volume 1 of his Pirc DVD? Something like ...a6 and then castling and then there is a line with e5 Ng4 Qf4 and then Black takes the e5-pawn and ...Qd6?

Yes, the last line you mention with the pseudo piece sacrifice is in my repertoire - it was already recommended in Pirc Alert 14 years ago. As for transposition problems, when Nf3 is in I am content to play with ...a6 against both the Be3/Qd2 (150 attack) and Be3/h3 (Accelerated Classical) setups.

Most sources seem to take the attitude that the Classical proper is less dangerous than the others, so Black should be OK if White transposes to that whether he has played ...a6 or ...c6 or neither. But things may not be that easy in reality. One possibility when committed to ...a6 is to go for a hippo-style setup with ...e6 and ...b6, as covered both in an SOS chapter (by Finkel iirc) and in Tiger's Modern. A chapter in DW: Pirc/Modern on 6...e6 (by Palliser) also has several transpositions to this.
  

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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #4 - 02/01/15 at 15:59:28
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TN wrote on 02/01/15 at 02:52:17:
Off the top of my head, I'd think 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 0-0 6.Qd2 runs into an effective 6...Ng4.


I would just meet 6. .. Ng4 with 7. Bg5 and if 7. ..h6, then Bh4.

The idea that you can play a 150 Attack with a Knight on f3 rather than a pawn bolsters White's chances of making it work, as does leaving out h3.

I've had the position five times. Two opponents went for 6. .. Nc6 and one each for 6. .. a6, 6. .. c6 and 6. .. Ng4
  
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #3 - 02/01/15 at 02:52:17
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Off the top of my head, I'd think 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 0-0 6.Qd2 runs into an effective 6...Ng4. And 6.h3 is just a main line where 6...c6 is a fine response.

Unfortunately 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 as noted by Stigma is more annoying and I never found something I was totally happy with as Black. 5...Nbd7 runs into 6.f4 and 5...b5 fails to 6.e5, for instance. The best move is probably 5...Bg7 but even then 6.f4 should be promising. A creative approach would be 5...Qa5 along the lines of the Pribyl, but I find it hard to believe. This is probably why a number of strong players switched to 4...a6.

I'd be inclined to recommend a Modern move order, meeting 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 with 4...a6 or 4...c6 (5.f4!) and answering most other moves with ...Nf6. This also has the advantage of dodging the 4.Bg5 Pirc (which is quite ineffective against the Modern).
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #2 - 01/31/15 at 23:36:42
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I see the 6...Qa5 in the Vigus book, but I guess that the ...b5/...Nbd7 setup in this case ends up too slow because of the e5 push and then exd6 exd6 cause problems because of a check on the e-file as Black is not castled (or ...Ng4 then exd6 Nxe3 Qxe3 sequence with a pain on the e-file)?

Also I see this ...a6 plan, but I am not sure if it might cause problems with transpositions with the ...c6 lines. I also see it in til example, page 240 of The Modern Tiger, the new Modern book by Hillarp-Persson. Is this the same plan given by Marin in Volume 1 of his Pirc DVD? Something like ...a6 and then castling and then there is a line with e5 Ng4 Qf4 and then Black takes the e5-pawn and ...Qd6?
  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
Reply #1 - 01/31/15 at 23:07:57
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Yes, you can't necessarily play the same setup against the Argentinean and 150 attacks. Against the 150 attack (with an early Nf3 in), I like to play with ...a6 instead of ...c6, i.e. 5...0-0 6.Qd2 a6 or even 5...a6.

White can however be very crafty and use the move order 4.Be3 c6 5.Nf3!?. Not many people do this for some reason, but I'm not aware of anything better for Black than going for your second diagram above with 5...Bg7 6.Qd2, where iirc 6...Qa5 and 6...Bg4 are both interesting tries to delay castling. If you don't like either of those, that may well be a reason theoretically for looking at alternative to 4.Be3 c6.

White can also use both these move orders as well as 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 to aim for the "Accelerated Classical", recommended by Dzindzi, Davies and others and discussed heavily on the forum. Not to mention the Archbishop attack with h3 and g4!? and the Jansa-Sveshnikov attack with Be3, h3 and f4. So you really need to take all these into account when planning your answers to 4.Be3 and 4.Nf3/5.Be3.
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Pirc 150 Specific Move Order
01/31/15 at 22:42:43
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Not sure if I am missing something here, but I play ...c6 against the Classical in the Pirc, 4...c6/5...b5 or 5...Nbd7 against 4. Be3.

So 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 is basically a Classical move order. Then 4...Bg7 is basically forced because 4...c6 trying to get the Classical via this move order I think runs into e5 advances when Black might be tricked and fall behind in development.

So 4...Bg7:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This should go into Classical. But then what if White instead tries a 150 Attack setup now, having delayed Be3:

5. Be3 c6 (to transpose to the Be3 lines, incase White wants Classical also ...c6 transposes to the ...c6 Classical), but then now 6. Qd2:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Now I am not sure if I have been tricked or something, because Black moved ...Bg7 in the 150 where I do not do against the Be3 move order--I usually develop ...c6/....Nbd7/...Qc7/...b5 or ....e5 first. Now if 6...0-0 this is a mix of the ...c6 and the ...0-0 system against the 150 Attack where neither complements the other, and White can try Bh6 since it does not lose a tempo if Black left the bishop on f8.

If I continue with my queenside setup I think that White can try this e5 which causes some awkward problems:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Note that 4. Be3 c6 5. Qd2 b5 with this move order, transposing to the 150 with 6. Nf3 fails immediately to 6...b4 as the e4-pawn hangs:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

and notice also that my bishop is not moved, still on f8, plus White cannot develop that g1-knight yet.

So did I get tricked in the move order, and how to deal with this 150 move order if I play 4. Be3 c6, and 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be2 0-0 6. 0-0 c6 in the Classical?
  
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