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Normal Topic Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!? (Read 1699 times)
semper_fidelis
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #6 - 03/15/18 at 18:02:14
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fling wrote on 03/15/18 at 16:55:31:
semper_fidelis wrote on 03/14/18 at 17:55:29:
In fact Avrukh considers 7...Nc6 (with inclusion of ...Bb4+ /Bd2). He quotes the game Sjugirov-Fressinet, 2013 as an example of White's play.


I see. I missed that one. I haven't the book here right now. Does he mention if there is a difference with the bishop on d2 compared to c1?


No, he just gives it as a minor sideline, where Black later plays Ne4/f5. If this is Black's best setup, then keeping the bishop on c1 instead of d2 seems to be in White's favour.
  
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fling
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #5 - 03/15/18 at 16:55:31
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semper_fidelis wrote on 03/14/18 at 17:55:29:
In fact Avrukh considers 7...Nc6 (with inclusion of ...Bb4+ /Bd2). He quotes the game Sjugirov-Fressinet, 2013 as an example of White's play.


I see. I missed that one. I haven't the book here right now. Does he mention if there is a difference with the bishop on d2 compared to c1?
  
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #4 - 03/14/18 at 17:55:29
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In fact Avrukh considers 7...Nc6 (with inclusion of ...Bb4+ /Bd2). He quotes the game Sjugirov-Fressinet, 2013 as an example of White's play.
  
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fling
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #3 - 03/14/18 at 12:49:52
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FreeRepublic wrote on 03/12/18 at 17:00:39:
The Nc6 idea vs the Catalan has been mentioned, but not really examined, here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1472139347

and here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1406915738/0

Perhaps somewhere else as well?

I suggested ...Nc6 with ...Bd6, instead of ...Be7. The idea being to play ...dxc and ...e5 if given a chance.

This can come about from a Reti move order:
1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Bg2 e6 5. O-O Bd6!? 6. c4 O-O

or a Catalan order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Nc6 5. Bg2 Bd6!? 6. O-O O-O

I think many players, myself included, distrust Nc6 in QGD structures because we want to use the c pawn, c6 or c5. But the ...e5 break is surely valuable if it can be safely attained. Also the knight on c6 may be able to relocate, to a5 or b4, with c5 to follow. If white pursues a prophylactic strategy, say b3 Bb2, black might also play slowly with b6 Bb7.

I found a few games from this position and white scores better. But that is the story of the QGD in general and also the Closed Catalan recently recommended by Davies. In the Nc6 Bd6 games I looked at, black could always improve, and according to Stockfish, get an equal game. So caveat emptor. I think the line is playable but one's results will probably improve with study or experience.


Sorry, I haven't seen this response until Eric posted today in this threat.

The idea with ...Bd6 looks interesting as well. Anyway, my initial question was posed because the system seems quite ok, especially compared to some other that are analyzed in the sources I mentioned. Avrukh doesn't seem to mention this variation in the GM 1A either.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #2 - 03/12/18 at 19:50:30
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I've been interested in 6...Nc6 as well after getting nothing special as White in a few blitz games. I'll be curious to see people's thoughts.
  
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Re: Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
Reply #1 - 03/12/18 at 17:00:39
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The Nc6 idea vs the Catalan has been mentioned, but not really examined, here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1472139347

and here:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1406915738/0

Perhaps somewhere else as well?

I suggested ...Nc6 with ...Bd6, instead of ...Be7. The idea being to play ...dxc and ...e5 if given a chance.

This can come about from a Reti move order:
1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Bg2 e6 5. O-O Bd6!? 6. c4 O-O

or a Catalan order:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. g3 Nc6 5. Bg2 Bd6!? 6. O-O O-O

I think many players, myself included, distrust Nc6 in QGD structures because we want to use the c pawn, c6 or c5. But the ...e5 break is surely valuable if it can be safely attained. Also the knight on c6 may be able to relocate, to a5 or b4, with c5 to follow. If white pursues a prophylactic strategy, say b3 Bb2, black might also play slowly with b6 Bb7.

I found a few games from this position and white scores better. But that is the story of the QGD in general and also the Closed Catalan recently recommended by Davies. In the Nc6 Bd6 games I looked at, black could always improve, and according to Stockfish, get an equal game. So caveat emptor. I think the line is playable but one's results will probably improve with study or experience.
  
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fling
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Closed Catalan - 6. 0-0 Nc6!?
02/23/15 at 19:42:09
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I have for fun just played a few games against Shredder on my phone. It keeps playing the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. Nf3 0-0 6. 0-0 Nc6!? This has actually been played by quite a few players (some that also play the Catalan as White), e.g. I. Sokolov, Radulski, Graf, Miladinovic, Gleizerov and Ehlvest.

Even though they are quite strong players, I could not find anything about this move (nothing about 6... Na6 either, even though Ponomariov has used it) in four different books: Bologan, Hilton and Ippolito, Avrukh or Davies and nothing from the games here at Chesspub. The moves considered are invariably either Open Catalan with ...dxc4 or Closed variations with either ...Nbd7 and ...c6 or similar.

I started looking at the line and found that Davies after all gives one game after transposition, and that is Gleizerov-Tsesarsky, Kursk 1987. We would reach this game after 7. Qc2 Nb4 and then 8. Qd1. If this is played, Black can choose 8 ...Nc6 if a draw is ok. Since I am interested in playing for more, I had a look at the lines with 8. Qb3 instead, the move I liked the bes. There are quite a few games in the variation, but nothing that leads to much of an edge for White. After 8...dxc4 9. Qxc4 Black can choose from two different continuations: 9...b5!? (Kengis-Hertneck, Germany 2000) or 9...b6.

Before posting this, I realized I have a fifth book, Raetsky and Chetverik. They consider these lines the first is given as an edge for White. Ribli considers this equal and I couldn't see anything particular for White either.
The second get the comment looks solid but is not too exciting for Black. I thought it seemed to be ok for Black, and not much for White. The game Rausis-Kualots, Sweden 2000, is mentioned, but also with an improvement.

If this is not enough, Black might also try e.g. 8...a5, which was played in Topalov-Kasimdzhanov, Leon rapid 2007. Finally, there are also many variations with ...Ne4, which may or may not be fully adequate for Black.

White may choose 7. b3 or 7. Nc3, which seem to score well according to Mega Database 2012, but when looking at the lines I can't find anything special for White there either.

Bottom line, it would have been nice to have some coverage of the move 6...Nc6!? in the other books. Or did I miss something? I might even give this a spin as Black. Any suggestions or comments?
  
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