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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni (Read 3709 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #19 - 07/07/17 at 12:16:54
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/06/17 at 10:38:22:
L's comment is wonderfully clear and direct, but is it an oversimplification? By contrast, T's comment is typically concrete, but maybe he could have offered some general guidance (if any is possible!) on (1) when to leave the N on d7 and play ...c5, vis-a-vis when to play ...Nd7-b6, (2) how to recapture on c5, and (3) when ...c5 might be on and when ...c6 might be best?

Yes. That would have been good.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/06/17 at 10:38:22:
Apologies for being off the direct topic here -- but I think no one exploring the Pirc 'swamp' can afford to completely bypass the (even more amorphous?) Modern swamp!

Practically speaking yes. Why would you not at least study positions with the most natural kingside piece setup for black; which is Bg7 at some point and Nf6 at some point.

Overall though I'm not entirely certain black after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 is going to get forced in some line to play Bg7 at a point when the positions then would go into positions reachable from the Modern.
In other words maybe black can somehow find new pathways by timing Bg7 precisely. I'm not sure at least.

There is also the possibility that the Pirc-swamp is starting to get to me (whatever you do, don't drink the water Shocked).


Something further:
Maybe a "Pirc 4 Be3: Best Lines/Move Orders" thread would be good. I think the 4.Bg5 one worked out well enough. Also I am hoping (and expecting Cheesy) Quality Chess to come up with some juicy 4.Be3 stuff in their upcoming releases; so might as well prepare the grounds here at chesspub. I considered starting one but then thought it would become a seriously lame thread start compared to yours in the 4.Bg5 thread Grin.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #18 - 07/06/17 at 10:38:22
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Thanks for this masterful ...Rb8 summary, C_b_T. I shall enjoy taking a close look when that monstrous toad 'work' gets off my back!

Quote:
I am not overly hot on both playing and analysing at least the first 15 moves of these 4.Be3 lines (Pirc or Modern).

Firstly because they are a swamp ... Also they (the slow lines when white goes f3 at least) are basically about constantly evaluating what is usually loads of possible positions, spotting small nuances and weaving in a lot of long term strategising. ...

And potential guidance from books is bewildering because there are often no clear main pathways and move orders confuse matters a lot ...

I think your last sentence here is very much to the point. I've been hugely confused by these lines, especially the Modern 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 ones, but I've also hugely enjoyed trying to establish some landmarks (even if sinking ones!) around the 'swamp', and I feel I've made a bit of progress. Tiger's (marvellous) book might achieve still-wider sales if it contained a bit more broad landmark-guidance for humbler players like me. Lakdawala by contrast is of course nowhere near as analytically forensic and his comments (judging from online samples) might be a bit basic, but it's certainly good to consult multiple sources, and of course, to try to get one's head around the transpo issues/possibilities which no book properly covers. A couple of (opposite) snapshots might serve to emblematise these things:

*  Lakdawala tells us that Black's basic plan [in Modern 4 Be3 a6 setups] is usually ...Rc8, ...Bb7 and ...c5.

*  Tiger, analysing the Modern position after 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5 6 f3 Nd7 7 g4 Bb7 8 Nge2 c5 9 h4 h6 10 dxc5, tells us that in this specific position all three tries (...dxc5/...Nxc5/...b5-b4!?) are possible and indeed OK.

L's comment is wonderfully clear and direct, but is it an oversimplification? By contrast, T's comment is typically concrete, but maybe he could have offered some general guidance (if any is possible!) on (1) when to leave the N on d7 and play ...c5, vis-a-vis when to play ...Nd7-b6, (2) how to recapture on c5, and (3) when ...c5 might be on and when ...c6 might be best?

Apologies for being off the direct topic here -- but I think no one exploring the Pirc 'swamp' can afford to completely bypass the (even more amorphous?) Modern swamp!
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #17 - 07/01/17 at 11:55:50
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Hey.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 12:16:04:
See this thread discussing (inter alia) the critical 4 Be3 -- http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1370951509/23#23 (After 4 f4, personally I'd retreat to Pirc lines! Smiley) Of course, the lines given in the thread are all brilliant for Black ... Cheesy

To be honest I am not overly hot on both playing and analysing at least the first 15 moves of these 4.Be3 lines (Pirc or Modern).

Firstly because they are a swamp Tongue. Let's be honest about this.
Also they (the slow lines when white goes f3 at least) are basically about constantly evaluating what is usually loads of possible positions, spotting small nuances and weaving in a lot of long term strategising. None of this is a part of my absolute strengths to be honest Embarrassed
And potential guidance from books is bewildering because there are often no clear main pathways and move orders confuse matters a lot Undecided

That being said the positions are still interesting and I will definitely write something in the above thread if there is something of interest that I note. For now though I don't even have time to go through it all in any detail.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #16 - 07/01/17 at 11:51:53
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 12:16:04:
Is there a thread which gives a basic up-to-date summary? Or maybe you could give a quick one?

Since there seems to be some renewed interest in the thread and its subject I will do this below. Ideally it would be good to see if Marin goes for this 8...Rb8 before analysing any continuation at depth; anyway though, here is some brief thought sharing. After:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8

9.Kh1 Is most popular. This I've found to be a bit weird although maybe there is some strange allure to playing a mysterious king move like this or something. Essentially white tells black that he is very welcome to play something active (9...Bg4 or 9...Nb4 for example) while secretly hoping that black will renounce any active knight jumps further on by going (9...Nc7). These three moves, as far as I know, has been the alternatives for black here in practice and well... I do see why this is – black needs to do something constructive and moving a light piece is the most natural way of going about this. The rarely tried 9...b6!? looks like the most principled continuation for me though. White tries to reduce black to comittal active attempts (9...Bg4 & 9...Nb4) or homefront piece shuffling (9...Nc7) instead with (9...b6) black now gets new development possibilities and can still consider active moves like Bg4 and Nb4 should the right situation for them come. As far as I can tell white has no immediate way to benefit from the slowness of the move.

9.a4 Nb4 10.Bc4 e6 11.dxe6 Bxe6 = So I think (9.a4) is just very suboptimal.

9.Qe2 I would not like to reply to with 9...Nc7 like everyone else does (looks too passive imo) so 9...Bg4 analysed in reply #1 is a move I really hope works. It seems to lead to interesting positions at least.

9.f5 Seems fairly critical (see reply #2 for some lines - I have not looked since then basically). The best response should be 9...gxf5, which maybe is not what everyone would like to play as black. Still black does get some practical counterchances there and I think it is at least not easy to show a path to a definite advantage for white against black's best defence (because this is what I think we need to call it here).

9.Qe1 Nb4 = Smile if you meet this queen move (and then play good chess to defuse white's attacking play; if it comes even without the important d3 bishop).

9.e5!? Is interesting and I don't think Moskalenko's labelling of the move as a weapon is off the mark at all. Very unblanced positions that are best discussed with analysis files nearby are reached. Alas I have not checked deeply enough for me to want to include any just now. What I can say is that there are probably more than one line where I would trust black's position.

9.h3 Is essentially based on the same idea as 9.Kh1. To limit black's strategic options. Here 9...b6 is in my view probably the best reply; although this does not seem to be common knowledge.

9.a3 Seems venomous and I am not entirely sure how black is to play (For some analysis see reply #3). The basic problem is that Nc7 and b5, which positionally are the most desirable moves to make now do quite little against white's centre and his fairly swift plan of going Qe1-h4 and f5 followed by some kind of attack. The alternative is the direct 9...b5, which at least has the appearance of being a very helpful move for black. The downside is that if white takes the pawn with his knight, to avoid coming worse black needs to engage in tactics and open up the game a bit on terms moderately favourable to white (he gets pieces nicely placed). Probably black is placed well enough to eventually equalise after 10.Nxb5 Nxe4 11.Re1 c4 12.Bxc4 Rxb5 13.Rxe4 Nc5, although white has at least a moderate initiative in the short term.

9.Bc4 Is not so popular against 8...Rb8. 9...Nc7 10.a4 e6 11.dxe6 Bxe6 12.Bxe6 fxe6 seems simplest, when despite some mild silicone optimism for white, I think black is OK.
Edit: 9...b5. Which I gave first is bad (I must have confused positions with 9.Qe2 Nc7 10.Bc4 b5).


So that was all the relevant lines I think. Anyway. knowing the above should give a player willing to do a little bit of own work some kind of base in the positions after 8...Rb8, even though of course lines and moves mentioned are subjectively picked and not by any means the only ones that could be worth investigating.

Have a nice day.



« Last Edit: 07/01/17 at 19:37:25 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #15 - 06/30/17 at 12:09:01
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Is there a thread which gives a basic up-to-date summary? Or maybe you could give a quick one?

It would have helped, of course, if I'd looked above in this very thread! D'oh! Embarrassed

I'll have to take a look at this variation, since I strongly suspect that, in the line discussed above after 13 Be3 Nd7, Black could be in some trouble after 14 Qg3!? ...
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #14 - 06/29/17 at 12:16:04
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Assessing long term chances, as a natural consequence, is ... key. Without doing analysis this seems hard to do for this 13.Be3 Nd7 continuation ...

Yes indeed. I might try to play some quick games with my regular sparring partner in the pub to at least try this line out!


Quote:
I found nothing earth shattering for white after 8...Rb8 at least.

Is there a thread which gives a basic up-to-date summary? Or maybe you could give a quick one?


Quote:
Michael Ayton wrote Today at 00:24:
I hope you're interested in key Modern Defence lines too

If you promise they are good Wink

See this thread discussing (inter alia) the critical 4 Be3 -- http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1370951509/23#23 (After 4 f4, personally I'd retreat to Pirc lines! Smiley) Of course, the lines given in the thread are all brilliant for Black ... Cheesy
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #13 - 06/29/17 at 11:28:21
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 00:24:50:
I looked only briefly, but I did have a strong engine running, and I'm hopeful, since the positions look to be the sort that can be analysed, at least by engines, to a conclusion!

Agree.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 00:24:50:
...Nd7, that move again!  Cheesy But seriously, I agree this seems much more relevant than 13...b6. The position reached is really interesting! Both sides seem to be restraining the other. Maybe Black can play ...a6 and ...b5 later on, even though White is now fully mobilised, but maybe White can after suitable preparation still aggress on the kingside (perhaps beginning with an h-pawn lunge?). In general I'm coming round to your way of thinking because I'm not convinced Black is really 'OK' against White's Bishops, but with the chess clock ticking it's certainly interesting! -- what do you think?

My thinking is not always comprehensible enough for others or myself to be worth putting down in text. here is an attempt though.

In essence. After 13.Be3 Nd7 it seems pretty clear to me that black has reached what I, lacking a good name, like to call a setup. In other words a point where it is fairly clear his position makes sense positionally. Under such circumstances, as long as there is no tactical considerations of importance or white has some way of attacking positionally to disorganise the opponent's setup, black should generally be fine; at least in the short to mid term.

Assessing long term chances, as a natural consequence, is therefore key. Without doing analysis this seems hard to do for this 13.Be3 Nd7 continuation (in other cases you can often get some way with guesswork) and I really have nothing overly analysis based to say on how the game might develop.

For this continuation I would anyway adopt a just play it and see if white proves anything approach. Appealing to me is that at the very least there would be a fair amount of interesting moves to make in the middlegame; hopefully before white has much time to put into plan some cunning way to accentuate the strengths of his own setup relative to mine and gradually outplay me (hopefully one could draw in the end though).

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 00:24:50:
So maybe the future of the ...Bg4 anti-Austrian hangs on the early ...e6 line? I must look at the ...Rb8 line properly at some point -- I confess I've been put off by the prospect of White getting an 'easy' kingside attack, but no doubt that's too simple?

With some good luck and no asteroid strikes on Glasgow there will soon be a GM repertoire book to explain which one to go for (or if not then one explaining why to avoid these interesting but ultimately dubious ways of playing Cheesy).

I found nothing earth shattering for white after 8...Rb8 at least. To be honest though I wouldn't mind a good mainline bust once in a while Grin

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/29/17 at 00:24:50:
I hope you're interested in key Modern Defence lines too

If you promise they are good Wink

Have a nice day.

Edit: for textual clarity at one point
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #12 - 06/29/17 at 00:24:50
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Michael Ayton wrote on 27. Jun 2017 at 12:37:
Your 13 ...d5!? indeed looks to me a great solution here and OK for Black

If it works. Yes. Smiley

I looked only briefly, but I did have a strong engine running, and I'm hopeful, since the positions look to be the sort that can be analysed, at least by engines, to a conclusion!


Quote:
Michael Ayton wrote on 27. Jun 2017 at 12:37:
How should Black proceed after, instead, 13 Be3 b6 (Is this move necessary, I wonder?) 14 Rad1 Qe7 15 Bf2?

The computer wants to keep the b6 square for a knight (13...Nd7), which is probably smart. c5 looks defended enough anyway and Nb6 plus pawn to d5 is a natural plan.

...Nd7, that move again!  Cheesy But seriously, I agree this seems much more relevant than 13...b6. The position reached is really interesting! Both sides seem to be restraining the other. Maybe Black can play ...a6 and ...b5 later on, even though White is now fully mobilised, but maybe White can after suitable preparation still aggress on the kingside (perhaps beginning with an h-pawn lunge?). In general I'm coming round to your way of thinking because I'm not convinced Black is really 'OK' against White's Bishops, but with the chess clock ticking it's certainly interesting! -- what do you think?


13.Nb5!? and already I don't see how black is going to play his position. Quote:
Some pawn move presumably has to be played at some point, although I have absolutely no idea of which pawn and when. The computer even suggests 13...Ne8, which looks like a fairly desperate positional measure.

Yes, point taken! Actually, this awoke in me a strong sense of deja-vu, because I've a feeling I've looked at this 13 ...Ne8 before. Then I think I dismissed it quickly; this time I looked for a bit longer before concluding it's inadequate!

So maybe the future of the ...Bg4 anti-Austrian hangs on the early ...e6 line? I must look at the ...Rb8 line properly at some point -- I confess I've been put off by the prospect of White getting an 'easy' kingside attack, but no doubt that's too simple?

PS. I hope you're interested in key Modern Defence lines too ... Wink



  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #11 - 06/28/17 at 10:25:28
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Good morning!

picasso911 wrote on 06/21/17 at 16:36:36:
I guess the critical line is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.0-0 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.d5 Ne7 10.Nxe5 c6 11.Bg5 cxd5 12.Bxf6 Qb6+ 13.Kh1 Bxf6 14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Nc4! Qc5! 16.exd5 Bg7 17.Qf3 b6 as recommended in Tiger's 2nd book. White is (at the moment) a pawn up, but Black's bishops should hold the balance (I think Tiger's Maingame for this line is a nice victory by Gewain Jones)

This I think is fine for black.

I have one or two ideas for white in these Ne7 lines but nothing at all certain to give any kind of advantage.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 12:37:24:
Your 13 ...d5!? indeed looks to me a great solution here and OK for Black

If it works. Yes. Smiley

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 12:37:24:
But why is 13 a4 '!' if it permits this?

For being a new path forward.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 12:37:24:
How should Black proceed after, instead, 13 Be3 b6 (Is this move necessary, I wonder?) 14 Rad1 Qe7 15 Bf2?

The compuer wants to keep the b6 square for a knight (13...Nd7), which is probably smart. c5 looks defended enough anyway and Nb6 plus pawn to d5 is a natural plan.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 12:37:24:
In one sense I guess it seems to me that it's all 'positional', and the Knight retreat is after all a 'typical motif' in such positions. How do you think White should proceed now? I have in my (admittedly probably antique!) notes 12 a4 Rb8 13 Bd2 a6 and now 14 a5 b5 15 ab Nb6 16 Be2 Nb5!, or 14 Qd3 b5 15 ab ab 16 Nb5 Nb5 17 Bb5 c4!?, in both cases with sufficient play for Black(?)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4 9.Bc4 Nc7 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Qxf3 Nd7 12.a4 Rb8

13.Bd2 is a bit non-impactful probably.

13.Nb5!? and already I don't see how black is going to play his position. Some pawn move presumably has to be played at some point, although I have absolutely no idea of which pawn and when. The computer even suggests 13...Ne8, which looks like a fairly desperate positional measure.

I have the immediate 12...a6 and the reply 13.a5 in my analysis file although:
13...b5 14.axb6 Nxb6 15.Be2 looks fairly simply +=
13...e6 14.Ba2!? Qe7 15.Bd2 I was pleased enough with as white.
and others I don't really get.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #10 - 06/27/17 at 12:37:24
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Vigus and Nunn/McNab assess 15...Nh5 as inferior due to 16.Nb5 Rac8 17.Nxa7 Rb8?! 18.Nc6, however the natural (and stronger) 17...Rcd8! isn't mentioned, so the whole line shouldn't be refuted.

Yes, I was assuming 17 ...Rcd8 here.

Quote:
Instead my main line has been 11...e6 although I have a less known 13th move as mainline compared to the already mentioned rook move.

Your 13 ...d5!? indeed looks to me a great solution here and OK for Black. But why is 13 a4 '!' if it permits this? How should Black proceed after, instead, 13 Be3 b6 (Is this move necessary, I wonder?) 14 Rad1 Qe7 15 Bf2?

Quote:
11...Nd7 I don't think equalises. Conceptually I also don't really like retreating the knight. Playing a game of positional chess will almost certainly benefit white with his space advantage.

In one sense I guess it seems to me that it's all 'positional', and the Knight retreat is after all a 'typical motif' in such positions. How do you think White should proceed now? I have in my (admittedly probably antique!) notes 12 a4 Rb8 13 Bd2 a6 and now 14 a5 b5 15 ab Nb6 16 Be2 Nb5!, or 14 Qd3 b5 15 ab ab 16 Nb5 Nb5 17 Bb5 c4!?, in both cases with sufficient play for Black(?)


  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #9 - 06/25/17 at 22:54:56
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/22/17 at 23:33:45:
Personally I've always quite liked this variation for Black, but I can't say I'm up to speed on the latest theory. In the 11 ...e6 line you give (I don't like 11 ...a6), why can't Black go 14 ...de 15 Qb7 Nh5? But be that as it may, I thought 11 ...Nd7 was meant to be best here, intending ...Rb8 and ...b5 and keeping ...e6 in reserve a bit. Am I out of date?

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4 9.Bc4 Nc7 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Qxf3

11...Nd7 I don't think equalises. Conceptually I also don't really like retreating the knight. Playing a game of positional chess will almost certainly benefit white with his space advantage.
11...a6, for similar reasons, does not look quite right to me either. Here of course black can switch back to a quick e6 if he really wants though; it is just he will have spent a tempo on a6 in a position where white probably wants to go a4 anyway.

Instead my main line has been 11...e6 although I have a less known 13th move as mainline compared to the already mentioned rook move. After looking at this reasonably deeply just now though... I think black is just about OK.
11...e6! 12.dxe6
12.f5!? looks like nothing.
12...fxe6 13.a4!
13.Rd1 Qe7 (13...Kh8!?) 14.e5 dxe5 15.Qxb7 Nh5! (Michael Ayton and analysts, is indeed good e.g.) 16.Nb5 Rac8 17.Nxa7 Rcd8 18.Be3 exf4 19.Nc6 Rxd1+ 20.Rxd1 Qg5 21.Bc1 Nd5 (=) Black is alright.
13...d5!
Others seem insufficent for equality. With this move though black should be able to reach what looks like quite defensible endgames. My main line here runs:
14.Rd1 Qe7 15.exd5 exd5 16.Bxd5+
16.Nxd5 Nfxd5 17.Be3!? Is an option, although I could not find advantage for white.
16...Nfxd5 17.Nxd5 Nxd5 18.Qxd5+ Kh8 19.Qf3 Rad8 20.Rf1
20.Rxd8 should be less critical.
20...Rfe8 21.c3 c4 22.f5!? Qc5+ 23.Kh2 Qxf5 24.Qxf5 gxf5 25.Bg5 Rd5 26.Rad1 Rxd1 27.Rxd1 Be5+ 28.g3 Kg7 29.Rd7+ Kg6 30.Bh4 b5 31.axb5 Bg7 32.Be7 Rb8
(=) to (+=) Black should very probably hold somehow.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #8 - 06/23/17 at 20:52:56
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Michael Ayton wrote on 06/22/17 at 23:33:45:
Personally I've always quite liked this variation for Black, but I can't say I'm up to speed on the latest theory. In the 11 ...e6 line you give (I don't like 11 ...a6), why can't Black go 14 ...de 15 Qb7 Nh5? But be that as it may, I thought 11 ...Nd7 was meant to be best here, intending ...Rb8 and ...b5 and keeping ...e6 in reserve a bit. Am I out of date?


Your idea with 15...Nh5 seems interesting and I found a (not flawlessly played) game by the great Modern/Pirc-Expert Azmaiparashvili.



Vigus and Nunn/McNab assess 15...Nh5 as inferior due to 16.Nb5 Rac8 17.Nxa7 Rb8?! 18.Nc6, however the natural (and stronger) 17...Rcd8! isn't mentioned, so the whole line shouldn't be refuted. Wink
In general, Black's wracked pawn structure and the pin along the 7th rank in this line could concern me a bit, but his active peaces and lead in development should hold the balance.

As you said, 11...Nd7 seems indeed like a pretty reliable and particulary not forcing line for Black to play, if he wants to avoid (or rather delay) a sharp tactical mess. Moreover, after White played Bc4, it looks quite sensible to be able to take on b6 with the Knight.
After 12.a4 a6 13.a5 (13.Qd3 Rb8 14.a5 b5 15.axb6 Nxb6 is okay for Black, as 16.Bxa6? fails to 16...Ra8!) 13...b5 14.axb6 Nxb6 15.Be2 f5 (15...e6 is also possible) Black strikes in the center and should keep good counter chances.
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #7 - 06/22/17 at 23:33:45
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after 8...Bg4 9.Bc4 Nc7 say 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Qxf3 neither 11...e6 12.dxe6 fxe6 13.Rd1 Qe7 14.e5 nor 11...a6 12.a4 Rb8 13.a5 b5 14.axb6 Rxb6 15.Qd3 look completely equal (but playable) ...

Personally I've always quite liked this variation for Black, but I can't say I'm up to speed on the latest theory. In the 11 ...e6 line you give (I don't like 11 ...a6), why can't Black go 14 ...de 15 Qb7 Nh5? But be that as it may, I thought 11 ...Nd7 was meant to be best here, intending ...Rb8 and ...b5 and keeping ...e6 in reserve a bit. Am I out of date?
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #6 - 06/21/17 at 16:36:36
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/20/17 at 23:05:14:
Hello and welcome to the forum!


Thank you!  Smiley

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/20/17 at 23:05:14:
Also had a few interesting games in this 6...Na6 continuation (and a healthy plus score Cool).
That being said I am also confident enough to play Tiger's, and Kornev's 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 and managed to beat a E2000+ once after 7.0-0 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bg5 c6 11.dxc6 Nxc6 12.Nxe5?? Qd4+ Grin (12...Nxe5? 13.Nd5 was my opponent's idea).


So far, I didn't have the chance to play the 9...Ne7-line in a tournament game (previously my choice was 9...Nd4 based on Nunns "Ultimate Pirc"), but I remember quite a few online games in which my opponent fell for the same 11...Qd4+ trap.  Grin
Seems to be little known, at least at my level.

I guess the critical line is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.0-0 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.d5 Ne7 10.Nxe5 c6 11.Bg5 cxd5 12.Bxf6 Qb6+ 13.Kh1 Bxf6 14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Nc4! Qc5! 16.exd5 Bg7 17.Qf3 b6 as recommended in Tiger's 2nd book. White is (at the moment) a pawn up, but Black's bishops should hold the balance (I think Tiger's Maingame for this line is a nice victory by Gewain Jones).

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/20/17 at 23:05:14:
In general the fact that most players seem to go:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4 these days is perhaps indicative of how they want to minimise risk in the position, which is of course quite present after the more positionally optimistic 8...Rb8. I don't see the great appeal in black's position after 8...Bg4 though (9.Bc4 += Wink); so for me 8...Rb8 has always been the more interesting move.


That's kind of the trade-off: In the 8...Rb8-line the same idea with Bc4 doesn't make too much sense as 9.Bc4 runs into 9...b5! (as you pointed out) with the Knight on a6 still defended.
In contrast, after 8...Bg4 9.Bc4 Nc7 say 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Qxf3 neither 11...e6 12.dxe6 fxe6 13.Rd1 Qe7 14.e5 nor 11...a6 12.a4 Rb8 13.a5 b5 14.axb6 Rxb6 15.Qd3 look completely equal (but playable).
In general, it's always nice to have an alternative suited for your mood or opponent of course.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/20/17 at 23:05:14:
Edit: I am secretly hoping for Marin to recommend 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8 Smiley


I'm anxious for Marin's new Pirc-book as well!  Cheesy
In my database he played both 8...Rb8 and 8...Bg4 exactly 5 times each, the latter more recently, but who knows!  Wink
  
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Re: B09: Austrian Pirc Benoni
Reply #5 - 06/20/17 at 23:05:14
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Hello and welcome to the forum!

picasso911 wrote on 06/20/17 at 11:56:56:
Against the Austrian with 6.Bd3 & 7.0-0 I almost exclusively played 7...Nc6, but sometimes the tension in the center fizzled out a bit too soon for my taste and it seemed difficult to avoid the outcome with Black.
7...Na6 is of course a very worthy alternative (and I think today even Mainline), as it generates a more strategic and dynamic middlegame fight. So I recently included it in my repertoire and got complex games, experience and feeling for the arising positions still need to be established though.

Also had a few interesting games in this 6...Na6 continuation (and a healthy plus score Cool).
That being said I am also confident enough to play Tiger's, and Kornev's 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Nc6 and managed to beat a E2000+ once after 7.0-0 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.d5 Ne7 10.Bg5 c6 11.dxc6 Nxc6 12.Nxe5?? Qd4+ Grin (12...Nxe5? 13.Nd5 was my opponent's idea).

picasso911 wrote on 06/20/17 at 11:56:56:
When I looked up your book references and refrehed some of my notes, it seemed that 9.Qe2 and 9.f5 post the most (practical) problems for Black - 9.Kh1 (very popular) and 9.a3 (maybe rather played as an SOS on move 6!) I wouldnt consider to be too dangerous.
In general, when Black is able to play both ..Rb8 and ..Bg4 (9.f5 is stopping this of course), he should be quite alright in my opinion, although 9.Qe2 as it prepares e5 and stops ..b5 has to be taken seriously.

In general the fact that most players seem to go:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Bg4 these days is perhaps indicative of how they want to minimise risk in the position, which is of course quite present after the more positionally optimistic 8...Rb8. I don't see the great appeal in black's position after 8...Bg4 though (9.Bc4 += Wink); so for me 8...Rb8 has always been the more interesting move.

There we do find risk and a lot of stuff needs to be known. I would even go so far as to say that after more than one white ninth move the position is so critical that there may only be one good reply for black Shocked.

Have a nice day.

Edit: I am secretly hoping for Marin to recommend 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Bd3 Na6 7.0-0 c5 8.d5 Rb8 Smiley
  
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