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Normal Topic Move Order Issue in Marin's Pirc DVD? (Read 1375 times)
Keano
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Re: Move Order Issue in Marin's Pirc DVD?
Reply #3 - 05/19/16 at 00:31:56
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hmm, very good point this - its more of a general issue with choosing early ...0-0 for Black.

Instinctively I am wary! Maybe Black can play ...c6 but in practical play I suspect its easier for White.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Move Order Issue in Marin's Pirc DVD?
Reply #2 - 03/19/16 at 18:43:28
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Mainline_Novelty wrote on 10/06/15 at 19:55:35:
So, Marin recommends 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0, and consequently, 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0, which is liable to transpose following Bh6.

What I'm confused about is what happens after 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0 6 f3!

In the 4 Be3 move order, he suggests 6...e5!, because he's afraid of playing ...c6, ...b5, and allowing the stereotypical "Sack, sack, mate" attack when White has yet to give Black a target by committing his King. This doesn't seem to be applicable when White's Bishop is on g5 because of the standard trick 6...e5? 7 dxe5 dxe5 8 Qxd8 Rxd8 9 Nd5!, winning material.

Of course, 6...c5 is possible, but neither Marin nor Vigus seem to have any faith in this line.

Anyway, what am I missing?


This is a good question. Marin mentions this possibility in passing, saying it would likely transpose to a c6 line earlier in the 4.Be3 coverage.

Vigus does cover the position after 6.f3 c6 7.Bh6 by a transposition in Dangerous Weapons: The Pirc and Modern within a note to move 6 in the game Ree - Donner from Chapter 1. In all the games cited, White castled by move 10. A question to ask is how long White can delay castling to his advantage. Black appears to have to adjust his plans against this move order, but it may still be playable.

With that said, I am investigating the flexible 5...h6 6.Bh4 0-0!? and 6.Bf4 a6!? to delay the commitment of the g-pawn for as long as possible. I had not been aware of this path until I noticed that CHOPIN gives this as the main line in the Byrne System. Vigus does not mention these continuations in any of his books, except he does mention a similar idea with 6.Bh4 Nbd7!? while dismissing the same move as inferior against 6.Bf4 (see page 333).
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Move Order Issue in Marin's Pirc DVD?
Reply #1 - 10/07/15 at 19:35:31
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Hi.

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.f3 c5)

Looks survivable for black and is the obvious way to try and prove that the white is bishop is worse on g5 compared to e3.

I know that Vigus was a bit dismissive of 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 in TPIBAW (he recommended other lines), so him not covering 6.f3 is not that big of a thing. Marin though, of course needs to cover all reasonable lines if he recommends something like 5...0-0.

Have a nice day.
  
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Mainline_Novelty
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Move Order Issue in Marin's Pirc DVD?
10/06/15 at 19:55:35
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So, Marin recommends 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0, and consequently, 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0, which is liable to transpose following Bh6.

What I'm confused about is what happens after 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0 6 f3!

In the 4 Be3 move order, he suggests 6...e5!, because he's afraid of playing ...c6, ...b5, and allowing the stereotypical "Sack, sack, mate" attack when White has yet to give Black a target by committing his King. This doesn't seem to be applicable when White's Bishop is on g5 because of the standard trick 6...e5? 7 dxe5 dxe5 8 Qxd8 Rxd8 9 Nd5!, winning material.

Of course, 6...c5 is possible, but neither Marin nor Vigus seem to have any faith in this line.

Anyway, what am I missing?
  

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