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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc? (Read 7778 times)
dunne
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #28 - 05/16/16 at 19:01:18
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It's a bit off-topic, but seeing as how the discussion has turned this way... as a long-standing 1.e4 player, I used to *hate* the Caro-Can't (as I oh-so-wittily thought of it) with a passion -- until I started playing it myself; and then I learned that it can lead to very interesting positions. Perhaps the epithet of "boring" is applied by those who don't want to learn how to play such positions?  I see in retrospect that this was true in my case.               
  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #27 - 02/03/16 at 12:51:17
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I get the 'boring' tag, and I recognise the vintage there. 'Black castles queenside and tries to hang on', seemed to be the moral of the opening tale as far as I could work out as a young 'un.

Yes, Houska's work is a good one. Caro is certainly unbalancing, and unlike e5 (Scotch 4 knights), and sicilian (Bb5), there's no obvious life-squashing approach. Panov, Short Advance, 2 Knights, Fantasy, main lines are all lively enough.
(Well, apart from the Nh3, ...e5 Qe2 line, but ssssh)

  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #26 - 02/03/16 at 12:20:18
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Funny how things like that stick. However, a short time with Houska's Opening Repertoire: Caro Kann and I don't think the "boring kid's opening" tag will stick very long. I'm just getting back acquainted with the 3.e5 c5 line and find it fascinating.
  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #25 - 02/03/16 at 09:40:32
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Zatara wrote on 02/03/16 at 01:11:55:
What about the Caro Kann


When I was considering alternatives, the Caro-Kann was certainly amongst the candidates. It's a good defence that I've never played myself. Possibly goes back to my school days which it was thought of as the move the boring kids played  Smiley

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #24 - 02/03/16 at 01:11:55
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Hi JEH,
What about the Caro Kann if you play the c6 lines in the Pirc?  You get open semi open positions less theory maybe then 1....e5, only maybe have to be thoroughly prepared vs e5 lines in Caro? Plus some variety in caro as apposed to the "gurg"??
zatara
  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #23 - 10/31/15 at 17:50:58
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JonathanB wrote on 10/31/15 at 17:36:42:
Did you ever test empirically whether your opponents actually would be likely to go 3 c4 in that line?  I’m wondering how likely it would actually be.


I would expect an e4 only player is highly unlikely to switch back to a d4/c4 system, but I'd not like to chance not being ready for it. The Averbakh variation could be something to have ready for such circumstances.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #22 - 10/31/15 at 17:36:42
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JEH wrote on 10/31/15 at 12:12:27:
... I'd taken up 1. ...d6 as a universal reply to avoid various KID systems, but necessitating using the Pirc rather than the Modern, the latter requiring you to play the KID in full or choose what are to my mind inferior although probably playable systems in the Modern.


I’ve been playing via the Pirc move order until now - in part to avoid any chance of White going 1 e4 g6, 2 d4 Bg7, 3 c4

Did you ever test empirically whether your opponents actually would be likely to go 3 c4 in that line?  I’m wondering how likely it would actually be.

  

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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #21 - 10/31/15 at 12:12:27
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JonathanB wrote on 10/31/15 at 11:46:48:
btw: with respect to your problems with Austrian attack did you ever try

1 e4 g6, 2 d4 Bg7, 3 Nc3 c6, 4 f4 d5
or
1 e4 g6, 2 d4 d6, 3 Nc3 c6, 4 f4 d5


I just call it the Gurg  Wink

Yes, done this. Some opening books influenced my repertoire choices early on, and one was Opening Tactics for Club Players by Sergiu Samarian and E. Pritchard. Actually a collection of opening systems, and within it was the Gurgenidze modern. Later I got more ideas on the Modern from Norwood's "Winning with the Modern" including the accelerated move order.

The book that put me off this system for Black was Khalifmann's Opening for White According to Anand book 4.

Also, I'd taken up 1. ...d6 as a universal reply to avoid various KID systems, but necessitating using the Pirc rather than the Modern, the latter requiring you to play the KID in full or choose what are to my mind inferior although probably playable systems in the Modern.

I see Chess stars are planning

http://www.chess-stars.com/Future_Plans.html

"• A Complete Black repertoire book based on the Pirc and the KI
by Alexei Kornev

Expected in February 2016"

Which hopefully will re-inforce this system for me.

I find though 1. ...e5 much easier to play as I find the White players in my usual opposition pool (say club players up to FMs) duck the critical systems, whereas against the Pirc, they have something better prepared.

In De la Villa's "Dismantling the Sicilian", his philospophy is main lines against main lines, side lines against side lines. Yet often I find my opponents doing the opposite.

I want to expand my general chess knowledge too. I've not just played the Pirc over my chess career, but I'm enjoying looking at a new opening and encouraged by the results.

At a recent tournament, I had a nice win in the Black side of an Italian, but didn't like either of my Pirc middle games, despite them being normal theory positions, and was lucky to get 0.5/2

The plan is still to keep both, using the Pirc/Czech/Philidor for mainly just the d4 players.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #20 - 10/31/15 at 11:46:48
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JEH wrote on 10/29/15 at 16:55:09:
Bibs wrote on 10/29/15 at 11:59:53:
oh, what is your level?


Trying to get back over 2000, or maybe even back over 2100 Embarrassed


Well with English tournaments that could almost be anything between average club player and FM - although I know you play abroad too so your rating probably more reliable.

I’m slightly disappointed to hear you may be sticking with the Pirc after all. As somebody who’s currently in the process of switching from open games as black to the pirc/modern complex I was going to suggest we courier each other all our books.


btw: with respect to your problems with Austrian attack did you ever try

1 e4 g6, 2 d4 Bg7, 3 Nc3 c6, 4 f4 d5
or
1 e4 g6, 2 d4 d6, 3 Nc3 c6, 4 f4 d5

?

(I know what these systems are called I just can’t spell it)
  

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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #19 - 10/29/15 at 16:55:09
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Bibs wrote on 10/29/15 at 11:59:53:
oh, what is your level?


Trying to get back over 2000, or maybe even back over 2100 Embarrassed
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #18 - 10/29/15 at 16:51:35
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Bibs wrote on 10/29/15 at 11:59:53:
For the love of Zeus, do not go near the Czech. It simply smells.


Been near it since '99. I must pong pretty bad.  Smiley

True, I've had my fair share of stuffings in it.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #17 - 10/29/15 at 11:59:53
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For the love of Zeus, do not go near the Czech. It simply smells.
I'd say the various Philidor lines are decent enough, depending on your level - oh, what is your level? Not something that white ever prepares very well.
  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #16 - 10/29/15 at 11:20:08
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Thanks for the replies. I think my crisis of faith might be dwindling.  Smiley

To replace the Pirc I would need either moving from 1. d4 d6 to 1. d4 Nf6 (I pair it with the KID) and/or playing the Czech (1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 c6, which does OK for me) or the Philidor (1. d4 d6 2. e4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 which seems OK).

But I'd like to keep those 1. d4 d6 2. e4 players having to prepare for the Pirc too, at least for the time being, and for blitz/rapid against 1. e4 I can rattle lines off and get away with not being punished as much Cool
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #15 - 10/29/15 at 00:31:42
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Hello.
JEH wrote on 10/27/15 at 11:33:51:
The first e4 defence I "learned" as a teen was the Dragon. I knew little theory. When I got to a point of thinking I needed to learn some, I got a bit scared  Shocked

Then I found this lovely defence called the Pirc, where I got a Dragon bishop, but without all this Sicilian theory  Smiley

Lovely indeed and with very few lines being extremely theoretical.

The Pirc bishop is a bit like a younger/less developed cousin of its dragon counterpart. With a bit of time, the right environment to grow and no Bh6xg7 bullying it can become great. Sadly it doesn't always turn out that way.

JEH wrote on 10/27/15 at 11:33:51:
That was over thirty years ago, and despite the Pirc being my long standing friend against 1. e4, I now wonder if I'm just in denial about its soundness, and it is time to say farewell  Cry

After thirty years I would encourage you to switch opening. There is more to chess than one opening.

About the metatheoretical status of the Pirc defense. Hard to say. Have not seen anything that indicates the unsoundness of the entire opening system (which realistically would be something like a fairly forced line leading to a white plus with no or bad alternatives for black). There are however plenty of indications that various variations, continuations and setups in general inside the Pirc opening are bad.

CarriedbyGg wrote on 10/27/15 at 14:14:33:
To add something of my strange humour, just buy "the modern tiger" by Hillarp Persson and you will love the Pirc/ the modern again! Wink
JEH wrote on 10/27/15 at 14:41:50:
Already have it. Nice book, but when he says transpose to the Pirc... Huh

He seems to do it at the times when it is certainly a very reasonable thing to consider (even for inveterate Modern players Wink).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Is it time for me to say farewell to the Pirc?
Reply #14 - 10/28/15 at 17:26:40
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It is a false dilemma to commit to an opening or "ditch" it completely.  You will always have it in your back pocket.  I think being a well-rounded player includes having two serviceable defenses to 1.e4 of which at least one is light on theory.

Anyway, picking up 1...e5 can be a great chess education in and of itself.  From a repertoire point of view in your situation, you might consider investigating the 1...e5 lines with an early ...g6.   Depending on your 1.d4 defenses you might also consider Philidor move orders with  d7-d6 or c7-c6 on the first move or two.  I think Pirc/Philidor/"fianchetto open game" is a fertile ground for "cunning" move orders to keep White guessing.

Here is a link from the prolific Kenilworthian blog:
http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-fianchetto-system-in-open-games....
  

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