Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Open sicilian with Bc4 (Read 2829 times)
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 1859
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #16 - 07/12/17 at 06:45:55
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 11/05/15 at 23:34:53:
"Modernized:  The Open Sicilian" advocated the Sozin against the Classical, with the old short-castling main line.  One thing to note is that if White is happy with that, he can play 7. 0-0 instead of 7. Bb3 in the Najdorf version (still allowing the ...b5 line, but devaluing ...Nbd7, which is perhaps more challenging).


I analysed some of the Sozin lines given in that book, but wasn't convinced by the following recommendation:  1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nf6 6.Nc3 e5 7.Nf5

To be honest this 6...e5 line put me off using the Sozin as a regular weapon against the Classical. Indeed I'm still not sure what White's most promising try is after 6...e5. Sad
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mikhail_Golubev
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 42
Location: Odessa
Joined: 02/17/04
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #15 - 07/12/17 at 00:00:54
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 01/03/17 at 14:49:26:
I analyzed the Fischer-Sosin-Variation with the 13.Nf5 idea by Velimirovic and here is my nice refutation of the classical sicilian: Wink

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bc4 e6 7. Be3 Be7 8.
Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O Qc7 10. Bb3 O-O 11. g4 Nd7 12. Rhg1 Nc5 13. Nf5 b5 14. Bd5 Bb7
15. g5 b4 16. Qh5 Ne5 (16... bxc3 17. Rg3) 17. Rg3 exf5 18. exf5 Rfc8 (18...
bxc3 19. g6) 19. g6 hxg6 20. fxg6 Bf6 21. Qh7+ Kf8 22. gxf7 Nxf7 23. Bd4 bxc3
24. Bxf6 Bxd5 25. Qxg7+ Ke8 26. Rxd5 cxb2+ 27. Kb1 Ne6 28. Qg8+ Nf8 29. Re3+
Ne5 30. Rdxe5+ dxe5 31. Rxe5+ Kd7 32. Qd5+ Qd6 33. Re7+ Kd8 34. Qxd6+ Nd7 35.
Qxd7# 1-0


15...Rfc8! is critical
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10112
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #14 - 07/10/17 at 00:31:28
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 01/06/17 at 20:35:04:
I see that the Modernized book also has 9. f4 Bd7 10. Qe2, which Golubev described as having hardly been investigated.

As 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Bc4 e6 7.Be3 Be7 8.Bb3 O-O 9.f4 Nxd4 10.Qxd4 Ng4 doesn't look attractive to me 9.Qe2 Bd7 10.f4 perhaps is an idea. Then White castles kingside if Black plays ...a6 before castling and plays the Velimirovic Attack against everything but 8...O-O 9.Qe2 Bd7. It requires some more work but is still nothing compared to the Richter-Rauser.
Against 6...Qb6 I'd prefer 7.Nxc6 bxc6 8.O-O intending 9.Be3 or 9.Bf4, gambiting the b2-pawn.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4177
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #13 - 07/09/17 at 20:15:47
Post Tools
A major possibility is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O Be7 8. Bb3 O-O 9. f4 ("Other moves don't make much sense" -- Golubev, 2001) b5 ("!" -- Golubev, 2001) where Black, perhaps to the consternation of White, has sidestepped the line with ...b5 met by Qf3 (instead of f4).  Other possibilities for White include 8. a3 and 8. a4.

Unfortunately I haven't seen what (GM Mikhail) Golubev's 2017 book has to say ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 16
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #12 - 07/09/17 at 18:48:48
Post Tools
Straggler wrote on 01/05/17 at 09:55:15:
I understood kylemeister to be saying that White must be happy with the 0-0 line in the Sozin (recommended by Amanov and Kavutskiy) in order to play 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 against the Najdorf, because Black can transpose into that Sozin line - not that White can force the transposition even if Black doesn't want it.


Agreed.
Here are a couple of lines that do not transpose:

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4!? e6 7. O-O!? Be7!? 8. Bb3 O-O 9. Qf3 Nbd7

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4!? e6 7. O-O!? Be7!? 8. Be3 O-O 9. f4 d5

I'm not sure that 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O!? offers much by way of an advantage, but it can certainly lead to an interesting game where both players will soon be on their own.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4177
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #11 - 01/06/17 at 20:35:04
Post Tools
Incidentally the line given by MNb stuck in my memory as associated with a game Chandler-Rachels, and considered equal in Golubev's Sozin book of some time ago.  I see that the Modernized book also has 9. f4 Bd7 10. Qe2, which Golubev described as having hardly been investigated.
« Last Edit: 01/06/17 at 21:41:41 by kylemeister »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Location: London
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #10 - 01/06/17 at 20:27:17
Post Tools
I don't think the book reaches that position. Instead of 9.0-0 it gives 9.f4, and if 9...Nxd4 not 10.Bxd4 but 10.Qxd4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10112
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #9 - 01/06/17 at 15:57:12
Post Tools
Assuming you still own that book - what does it recommend against

  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Location: London
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #8 - 01/05/17 at 09:55:15
Post Tools
I understood kylemeister to be saying that White must be happy with the 0-0 line in the Sozin (recommended by Amanov and Kavutskiy) in order to play 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 against the Najdorf, because Black can transpose into that Sozin line - not that White can force the transposition even if Black doesn't want it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ako
Full Member
***
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 210
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #7 - 01/04/17 at 11:20:28
Post Tools
Straggler wrote on 12/10/15 at 13:16:48:
kylemeister wrote on 11/05/15 at 23:34:53:
"Modernized:  The Open Sicilian" advocated the Sozin against the Classical, with the old short-castling main line.  One thing to note is that if White is happy with that, he can play 7. 0-0 instead of 7. Bb3 in the Najdorf version (still allowing the ...b5 line, but devaluing ...Nbd7, which is perhaps more challenging).

I'm grateful to kylemeister for that suggestion, as I have the book and don't have much confidence in the recommendation of 6.h3 against the Najdorf. 6.Bc4 looks much more fun, especially if it can transpose into a line that Amanov and Kavutskiy do recommend.

In the Classical, the book's recommendation after 6.Bc4 Qb6 7.Nb3 e6 is 8.Bf4. GM Kosten, in his (excellent!) ebook, says that this move "became popular after being recommended in one of the Beating the Sicilian books". This puzzles me, since all three editions of that book recommend the Rauzer, not the Sozin. Is there a transposition to this position from some other variation, or was GM Kosten just misremembering?


I don't understand. I fblack plays 5.-a6 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 b5 8.Bb3 Be7  I see no way for white to transpose to the lines of "Modernized:  The Open Sicilian".
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 621
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #6 - 01/03/17 at 14:49:26
Post Tools
I analyzed the Fischer-Sosin-Variation with the 13.Nf5 idea by Velimirovic and here is my nice refutation of the classical sicilian: Wink

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bc4 e6 7. Be3 Be7 8.
Qe2 a6 9. O-O-O Qc7 10. Bb3 O-O 11. g4 Nd7 12. Rhg1 Nc5 13. Nf5 b5 14. Bd5 Bb7
15. g5 b4 16. Qh5 Ne5 (16... bxc3 17. Rg3) 17. Rg3 exf5 18. exf5 Rfc8 (18...
bxc3 19. g6) 19. g6 hxg6 20. fxg6 Bf6 21. Qh7+ Kf8 22. gxf7 Nxf7 23. Bd4 bxc3
24. Bxf6 Bxd5 25. Qxg7+ Ke8 26. Rxd5 cxb2+ 27. Kb1 Ne6 28. Qg8+ Nf8 29. Re3+
Ne5 30. Rdxe5+ dxe5 31. Rxe5+ Kd7 32. Qd5+ Qd6 33. Re7+ Kd8 34. Qxd6+ Nd7 35.
Qxd7# 1-0

  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 230
Location: London
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #5 - 12/10/15 at 13:16:48
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 11/05/15 at 23:34:53:
"Modernized:  The Open Sicilian" advocated the Sozin against the Classical, with the old short-castling main line.  One thing to note is that if White is happy with that, he can play 7. 0-0 instead of 7. Bb3 in the Najdorf version (still allowing the ...b5 line, but devaluing ...Nbd7, which is perhaps more challenging).

I'm grateful to kylemeister for that suggestion, as I have the book and don't have much confidence in the recommendation of 6.h3 against the Najdorf. 6.Bc4 looks much more fun, especially if it can transpose into a line that Amanov and Kavutskiy do recommend.

In the Classical, the book's recommendation after 6.Bc4 Qb6 7.Nb3 e6 is 8.Bf4. GM Kosten, in his (excellent!) ebook, says that this move "became popular after being recommended in one of the Beating the Sicilian books". This puzzles me, since all three editions of that book recommend the Rauzer, not the Sozin. Is there a transposition to this position from some other variation, or was GM Kosten just misremembering?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1910
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #4 - 11/14/15 at 19:40:18
Post Tools
Dunno. The RR effectively driving the classical underground can't have helped I guess.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RoleyPoley
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 395
Location: London
Joined: 12/29/13
Gender: Male
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #3 - 11/14/15 at 11:38:33
Post Tools
Funny, i was thinking about this just yesterday. When i was playing regularly back in the 90's, i regularly faced Fischer-Sozin lines, and it had been used around that time by some of the top GMs such as Short and Polgar i think.

I no longer play the sicilian, but its not a line that i see on other boards, or in the few GM games i read.  Other than the book mentioned above, and the one by Gary Lane I'm not sure it is covered much for white.

Is this just a victim of fashion or has theory rendered it toothless now?
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4177
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Open sicilian with Bc4
Reply #2 - 11/05/15 at 23:34:53
Post Tools
"Modernized:  The Open Sicilian" advocated the Sozin against the Classical, with the old short-castling main line.  One thing to note is that if White is happy with that, he can play 7. 0-0 instead of 7. Bb3 in the Najdorf version (still allowing the ...b5 line, but devaluing ...Nbd7, which is perhaps more challenging).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo