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Poll closed Question: Which is the theoretically best line against the Pirc?
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Accelerated Classical (Be3, Nf3, h3 in some order)    
  1 (2.9%)
Accelerated Classical w/o h3 (Be3, Nf3 some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Archbishop with bishop (Be3, h3, g4 some order)    
  3 (8.8%)
Archbishop with knight (Nge2, h3, g4 some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Argentinian (Be3, f3, Qd2 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Argentinian hurried (4.f3, 5.g4)    
  0 (0.0%)
Austrian (4.f4)    
  11 (32.4%)
Austrian delayed (Be3, h3, f4 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Byrne (4.Bg5)    
  6 (17.6%)
Classical (4.Nf3, 5.Be2)    
  3 (8.8%)
Double bishop (Be3, Be2 in some order)    
  0 (0.0%)
Fianchetto (4.g3)    
  1 (2.9%)
One fifty (4.Be3, 5.Qd2)    
  2 (5.9%)
One fifty with Nf3 (Be3, Qd2, Nf3 in some order)    
  2 (5.9%)
Other line    
  1 (2.9%)




Total votes: 34
« Created by: Confused_by_Theory on: 12/02/15 at 08:09:17 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll (Read 4873 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #29 - 02/27/16 at 01:21:30
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Hello.

There is now only a few days remaining to vote if you have not already done so.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #28 - 01/12/16 at 15:46:07
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Hello.

Glad your 'in it' again.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #27 - 01/11/16 at 17:21:34
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Many thanks for this, CbT, and sorry i didn't say so earlier! I've been 'out of it' lately with a lethal combination of overwork and flu-bug, but I look forward to re-engaging with the Pirc! When I looked briefly at your lines initially I liked the look of them ...
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #26 - 12/10/15 at 08:10:49
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 12/05/15 at 01:41:18:
I was just a bit surprised you do not prefer Kramnik's 4 ..a6, I guess, though I do not know what to do against 5 h3 (5 ...Bg7 6 f4) here -- does anyone?

Vigus in Chess Developments the Pirc (Everyman Chess 2012) shows (on p.168-171) a few pitfalls and interesting ideas in the 4...a6 5.h3 line. After your:

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4)

he gives:

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nc6) plus also (7...b5) and (7...e6) and seems to slightly favour 7...Nc6.

Personally (and I don't often play 4...a6, be aware) I would instead of the above mentioned moves consider:

(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nfd7!?)

With the point that white on his next move ideally would like to develop his light square bishop to a nice square (basically d3) or possibly make some active move like e5. However considering that black can now hit white with a fast c5 he may have to do something else; less in accord with the demands of the position. A few continuations for example:

(8.e5 c5) With counterplay.
(8.Bd3 c5) The tension in the centre favours black who can further improve his position with b7-b5 quite easily.
(8.h4 Nf6) It seems unlikely that any attack would succeed after white has given up the kingside light squares.
(8.g4 b5!?) In the structure after b5 it is not really certain that white would have liked to play g2-g4.
(8.Be2 c5) White's position does not seem that threatening after he posts the bishop on e2.
(8.Qd2 b5) And while white has reasonable coordination and still some chances for aggression one can ask if queen really belongs on d2. Maybe using the fact that the queen defends e3 by going
9.h4!? Nf6 10.e5! Ng4 (not forced but natural) 11.h5 can be mildly dangerous, but the position does not seem that clear.

Michael Ayton wrote on 12/07/15 at 22:57:47:
In the 4 Be3 a6 5 g4 line, I reckon 5 ...Nbd7!? is OK here as well after:

I 6 g4 b5 7 g5 Nh5 7 Be2 Bb7!
II 6 f4 b5 7 e5 b4!
III 6 Nf3 e5! 7 de de 8 Bc4 Bg7 9 0-0 0-0.

Does Moskalenko say anything about this, I wonder?


Nope. After he (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3) he dribbles himself away by writing that after 5...Bg7 6.a4 the position transposes into one of his illustrative games  Roll Eyes (see the Perfect Pirc Modern p.151).

Thus the variation with 5.h3 followed by f4 is not covered. There is decent coverage of 5.f4 though, instead of 5.h3.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #25 - 12/10/15 at 06:24:25
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Hello.

I thought of making some kind of regular poll reading if in three months time one would like to look back and see how the poll has progressed.

Just over a week in to the poll Austrian (8 votes) and Byrne (6 votes) together have about 60% of all votes cast.
The other options which have received votes are: Archbishop with bishop (3), Argentinian (2), Classical (2), One fifty (1) and Other line (1).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #24 - 12/07/15 at 22:57:47
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Quote:
4. Le3 c6 5. h3 I think either move is fine, you can play either 5...Sbd7 or 5...Lg7. You can play that line iwth 7...Sb6 if you want. But the setup I talking about is like 7...Lb7 8. Lg2 Sb6 9. b3 a5!? trying to get the pawn phalanx with b4-c5-d6-e7. You can let the bishop on f8 for the time. With 7...Sb6 there is 8. d5 but 8...Lb7 should be fine I think. 9. dxc6 Lxc6 and White overextended.

7...Sb6 then 8. g5 Sfd7 9. h4 h5 10. d5 Lb7 like abowe, or 9...Lb7 10. h5 Tg8!? and your plawn is ...a5 and try to push b4 and c5 again. For example 11. Df3 a5.


Thanks for this confirmation that Black has respectable answers to the Archbishop! I always thought so, but I must admit I had overlooked the logical 7 ...Bb7 here, meeting 8 Bg2 with 8 ...Nb6. Obviously 8 g5 is possible, but the typical 'North Sea' plan with 8 ...Nh5 looks decent.

And it seems 7 ...Nb6 is perhaps OK too. After 8 g5 Nfd7 9 h4 here I don't greatly like giving White so much space with 9 ...Bb7; but, after 9 ...h5 10 d5, I wonder if Black shouldn't play 10 ...cxd5 11 cxd5 a6 12 Bd4 Rg8 instead of 10 ...Bb7 11 Bd4 Rg8 12 dxc6 bxc6 13 Bb5 winning a pawn. But, back on move 8, I guess Black can go 8 ...Nh5 here too (9 d5 Bb7)! -- in other words, perhaps he doesn't have to put the Knight on the newly freed d7 square just because he can!

In the 4 Be3 a6 5 g4 line, I reckon 5 ...Nbd7!? is OK here as well after:

I 6 g4 b5 7 g5 Nh5 7 Be2 Bb7!
II 6 f4 b5 7 e5 b4!
III 6 Nf3 e5! 7 de de 8 Bc4 Bg7 9 0-0 0-0.

Does Moskalenko say anything about this, I wonder?



  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #23 - 12/07/15 at 08:36:19
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gramsci wrote on 12/07/15 at 07:55:53:
That's the point: what to play then against the Modern where Bg5 seems less effective?
                   



The Austrian attack, which even the Modern Tiger offers transposing back to the Pirc as a safer option  Huh
  

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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #22 - 12/07/15 at 07:55:53
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JEH wrote on 12/05/15 at 08:57:46:
Some avoid it by playing 1. ...g6!

That's the point: what to play then against the Modern where Bg5 seems less effective?
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #21 - 12/05/15 at 08:57:46
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I see unsurprisingly that the Byrne Bg5 is scoring well in the poll and in practice. Another dangerous system that can be combined with an f4 push.

I've been trying the castling into it approach, offering a transposition into Be3 lines after Bh6.

Some avoid it by playing 1. ...g6!

It's time to Byrne!

  

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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #20 - 12/05/15 at 03:51:36
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Michael Ayton wrote on 12/05/15 at 01:41:18:
Could you be a bit more specific? Also do you think the Archbishop Attack can be successfully dealt with, and if so should Black, after 4 Be3 c6 5 h3, play 5 ...Nbd7 6 g4 b5 7 a3 Nb6!? (when engines seem to think s/he has enough counterplay), or maybe 5 ...Qa5 ?

I was just a bit surprised you do not prefer Kramnik's 4 ..a6, I guess, though I do not know what to do against 5 h3 (5 ...Bg7 6 f4) here -- does anyone?


4. Le3 c6 5. h3 I think either move is fine, you can play either 5...Sbd7 or 5...Lg7. You can play that line iwth 7...Sb6 if you want. But the setup I talking about is like 7...Lb7 8. Lg2 Sb6 9. b3 a5!? trying to get the pawn phalanx with b4-c5-d6-e7. You can let the bishop on f8 for the time. With 7...Sb6 there is 8. d5 but 8...Lb7 should be fine I think. 9. dxc6 Lxc6 and White overextended.

7...Sb6 then 8. g5 Sfd7 9. h4 h5 10. d5 Lb7 like abowe, or 9...Lb7 10. h5 Tg8!? and your plawn is ...a5 and try to push b4 and c5 again. For example 11. Df3 a5.

Then you also can play 5...Lg7 instead.

Black also has good options just as much as White has "good" options, Blacks three main moves are 4...c6, 4...a6, and 4...Lg7. You can play 4...Lg7 like Marin or 4...a6 like Kramnik. 

If you really prefer 4...Lg7, look at bog of Vigus (both the 2006 and 2012) as well as the 2009 bog by Vigus/McNab/Palliser. Also DVD of Marin (Attacking lines, Volume 2). It has coverage of 4...Lg7 for Black.

And White has to learn to play against all three if she wants to play 4. Le3. Does not seem so easy for White to me  Cool
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #19 - 12/05/15 at 01:41:18
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Great to see some discussion going on the Pirc, a fascinating defence which, whatever its 'ultimate' status might be, can lead to wonderfully strategically and tactically rich positions. An added attraction, I think, is that theory in some lines is pretty volatile or even quite inchoate and will quite possibly change and grow quite profoundly quite quickly. It's conventionally said (e.g. by Kasparov) that it's none too practical a defence since Black has to be ready for a wide range of quite dangerous lines and sub-lines. I'm sure there's truth in this but I think there are counter-truths as well. For example, after 1 ...d6 Black is actually probably going to see the Pirc on the board, which is often more than might be said for a given pet Sicilian line! This means that Black can successfully specialise and thus compensate for some of the practical difficulties the defence involves. Another benefit -- and obviously this is entirely subjective -- might be transpositional: with 1 d4 d6!?, for instance, you might be able to reach KiD or KID-related setups you like (e.g. 2 c4 e5, of course) while denying (by delaying ...Nf6) White some choices you might find tedious.

@ DenVerdsligeRejsende -- you write that [after 4 Be3 c6] you often

Quote:
seek counterplay with ...b4, and press the ...c5 lever. Keep the tension like this unless White defines it. Otherwise keep developing. I often have the double fianchetto going in this line.


Could you be a bit more specific? Also do you think the Archbishop Attack can be successfully dealt with, and if so should Black, after 4 Be3 c6 5 h3, play 5 ...Nbd7 6 g4 b5 7 a3 Nb6!? (when engines seem to think s/he has enough counterplay), or maybe 5 ...Qa5 ?

I was just a bit surprised you do not prefer Kramnik's 4 ..a6, I guess, though I do not know what to do against 5 h3 (5 ...Bg7 6 f4) here -- does anyone?
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #18 - 12/04/15 at 21:25:29
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 12/04/15 at 10:14:25:
Having some people call the Pirc unsound but I have better results against around the same level opposition than the Sicilian and French!


But you having better results with that opening than another is not really about soundness, but you playing better from the resulting positions I guess. I don't know if the Pirc is unsound, but anyway, there are many openings that may be unsound and still pretty strong players win with them. Remember, Miles even beat Karpov with 1...e6  Wink
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #17 - 12/04/15 at 10:36:23
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 12/04/15 at 10:14:25:
And German notation? It is also Skandinavian notation 



Oops, just noticed your location  Embarrassed
  

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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #16 - 12/04/15 at 10:14:25
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JEH wrote on 12/04/15 at 10:10:05:
I play the Pirc and score less well against the Pirc/Modern too which is odd. Maybe something psychological about playing against your own defence.

P.S. I'm also getting better at reading German style notation 


Not sure about that, because I also play the Sicilian, French, and Caro. If I want a must-win defence, I turn to the Pirc. Which is why this poll feels a bit weird. Having some people call the Pirc unsound but I have better results against around the same level opposition than the Sicilian and French!

And German notation? It is also Skandinavian notation  Cool
  
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Re: B07-B09: Pirc defence best line Poll
Reply #15 - 12/04/15 at 10:10:05
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 12/03/15 at 22:38:20:
Maybe that also and my problems with playing White. I mean at least I won a lot more times against the Sicilian, French, and 1...e5 than the Pirc 


I play the Pirc and score less well against the Pirc/Modern too which is odd. Maybe something psychological about playing against your own defence.  Huh

P.S. I'm also getting better at reading German style notation 
  

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