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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =? (Read 3065 times)
MNb
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #13 - 09/22/17 at 11:52:12
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/21/17 at 00:27:04:
players of the white pieces might distrust being two pawns down!

Those players should not play gambits anyway.


7....dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Nge7 11. Ba3 O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6.
FreeRepublic wrote on 09/21/17 at 00:27:04:
but where is the advantage?

Believe it or not, but even in such positions positional considerations are important. Black's last move does nothing to improve his/her position; it only introduces a simple threat. White must meet it and at the same time build op his/her attack. So Bd3,  Rfe1, Ne4 and Re4 are logical for the next few moves. Then White's positional advantage is clear as Black is playing without Ra8 and Bc8. Moreover Black has two concrete weaknesses: pawn h7 and the placement of the queen, who might get shut in.
To prove an advantage for White in all lines might require two pages, but in several lines it seems like Black's best bet is give back a pawn with ...d6 and ...d5 after which activity will be at least enough to compensate. Sample lines: 13.Bd3 Qh6 14.Ne4 d6 15.exd6 cxd6 16.Nxd6 and 13.Rfe1 Na5 14.Qa4 Nxc4 15.Qxc4 Re8 (Qc6) 16.Bxe7 Rxe7 17.Nd5, so even Black's threat is not frightening.
I can perfectly understand why everyone prefers 7...Nge7. Since the silicon revolution not only defensive methods but also attacking methods have been improved. 7...dxc3 is simply way too risky. A sure sign is that last 10 years or so no strong corr. player (say ELO 2200+) has tried it as Black.

Rodriguez,K (2370) - Hall,T (2052)
VWC5/pr15 ICCF, 01.09.2012

1-0


Blaszczak,J (2204) - Geryk,M (2126)
CT21/pr70 ICCF, 01.10.2015

1-0

To make things worse there is also this:


Uusitalo,J (2331) - Salonen,J (2164)
FIN/C66 (FIN) ICCF, 10.04.2015

1-0

Attacking players can handle chess engines too.







  

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mn
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #12 - 09/21/17 at 04:21:04
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It looks to me like Black is in big trouble in the line you gave. I have no idea how he's going to get his Queenside out, and nearly all his pieces are on awkward squares. My engine is giving White a small plus, meaning Black is facing nearly two and a half pawns worth of compensation. The second player's best bet may well be 13 Rfe1 Na5 14 Qa4 Nxc5 15 Qxc4 Qc6!?, bailing out into the ending after 16 Qxc6 dxc6 17 Bxf8 Kxf8, where, despite material being roughly level, Black is still a ways away from completing development.
  
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #11 - 09/21/17 at 00:27:04
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"Try 11...Rb8 12.Nd5 b5, and Stockfish will be much happier."

Yes Stockfish is happier for white, around SF 36. Whereas after 11...O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6 SF rates the position as negative. So it seems that 11...0-0 is to be preferred by Black.

GM Mihail Marin (pg 123 Beating the Open Games) continues with 11...0-0 12.Rad1 b5!? His analysis ultimately favors white. There is no mention of 12...Bb6.

As far as I can tell, black does best to play 12...Bb6 as mentioned by Sloughter in his initial post.

Theory has reached a consensus that black should play 7...Ne7. However I'm not aware of anyone demonstrating a white advantage after 7....dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Nge7 11. Ba3 O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6. White can vary along the way, but where is the advantage?

I'm sure many players distrust the "greedy" pawn grab 7...dxc3. On the other hand, players of the white pieces might distrust being two pawns down!
  
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #10 - 09/20/17 at 17:56:45
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/16/17 at 14:45:27:
Stockfish does not see full compensation,

That's only because you are looking at 11...0-0 which is "old theory". Try 11...Rb8 12.Nd5 b5, and Stockfish will be much happier.
  
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #9 - 09/16/17 at 14:45:27
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Looking at the position at move 13

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Nge7 11. Ba3 O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6

White has open lines and black lags in development. On the other hand, black is up two pawns. Stockfish does not see full compensation, but that may simply be due to the horizon effect. It may see the compensation, and then some, once it is too late.

Using my own eyes, I see a tense game that could go either way. This position is a real test of gambit play! It harkens back to the 19th century.
  
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TN
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #8 - 06/21/16 at 18:40:40
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7...dxc3 is almost losing by force, play 7...Nge7! with equality instead.
  

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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #7 - 06/21/16 at 00:59:12
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Now try that in a single post.
1. What is the state of play?
2. What are you suggesting?
3. How is your suggestion significant?

And please, respectfully, the games of a low-rated player against a software, unless situated, are of little help to anyone.
Situate the discussion, and explain.

all the best,
B (with mod hat on)
  
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #6 - 06/20/16 at 23:28:00
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Bibs wrote on 05/24/16 at 01:21:27:
And today's theory indicates what in these lines...?
Context, dear fellow. Place your comments, in theoretical context.

'Random internet person of limited ability plays computer' is not necessarily interesting in itself, particularly, with the greatest respect, for those here familiar with your published 'work'.


Here is a game from ECO: Wurschner-Makovsky Corr. 2001: 7...dxc3 8.Qf3 Qf6 9.e5 Qg6 10.Nxc3 Nge7 11.Ba3 O-O 12.Rad1 Bb6 (Departing from the game which saw Re8 13.Bd3 Qh5 14.Ne4 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Qxe5 16.Bb2 Qe6 17.Qb5 +/- 12...Bb6 is also not in Evans Gambit And A System Vs. TWO KNIGHTS' DEFENSE [Rev. 2nd Ed] by Tim Harding) 13.Qa4 (Bd3 Qh5 14.Ne2 d5 15.exd6 cxd6 16.Ng3 Qa5 17.Bxd6 Rfe8 =) Re8 14.Bd3 Qh5 15.g4 Qh3 16.Ng5 Qh4 17.Nf3 Qh3=
  
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Bibs
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #5 - 05/24/16 at 01:21:27
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And today's theory indicates what in these lines...?
Context, dear fellow. Place your comments, in theoretical context.

'Random internet person of limited ability plays computer' is not necessarily interesting in itself, particularly, with the greatest respect, for those here familiar with your published 'work'.
  
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sloughter
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #4 - 05/23/16 at 21:39:06
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Bibs wrote on 02/06/16 at 00:58:30:
You did this before. And it bothered people.
Lengthy software games and conversations with yourself.

Better to refer to the theory.
How does what's happening here connect with what current understanding is?
From what texts and games?
Thanks
B


Steinitz displays his defensive brilliance in this game against the solid player (Grandmaster by today's standards, Blackburne in London 1872:) 4.b4 Bxb4 5.c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7.O-O dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9.e5 Qg6 10.Nxc3 Nge7 11.Ne2 b5! 12.Bd3 Qe6 13.Qb2? -/+ (White is the first to blink; White had to play Qxb5 here with only one missing pawn for the initiative. After 13...Qd5 14.Qxd5 Nxd5 =/+) 13...Ng6 14.Bf4 O-O (Ngxe5-+)  0-1:55
  
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #3 - 02/06/16 at 02:31:29
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I second what Bibs said and hope that the mods keep this on a very short leash.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #2 - 02/06/16 at 00:58:30
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You did this before. And it bothered people.
Lengthy software games and conversations with yourself.

Better to refer to the theory.
How does what's happening here connect with what current understanding is?
From what texts and games?
Thanks
B
  
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sloughter
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Re: Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
Reply #1 - 02/05/16 at 00:53:43
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sloughter wrote on 02/05/16 at 00:50:50:
Here are a couple of games played against Deep Fritz 14:

Moody-Deep Fritz 14 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Nge7 11. Ba3 O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6 13. Qa4 h6 14. Bd3 f5! 15. exf6 Qxf6 16. Qc4+ d5 17. Nxd5 Nxd5 18. Qxd5+ Be6 19. Qe4 Bf5 20. Qd5+ Be6 21. Qe4 Bf5 22. Qd5+ Be6 1/2-1/2

Moody-Deep Fritz 14 12...Bxc3 13.Nxc3 h6 14.Bd3 Qe6 15.Bc4 Qg6 16.Bd3 Qe6 17.Bc4 Qg6 18.Bd3 1/2-1/2

Black seems to be able to force a draw by repetition in all the key variations. If Black errs e.g., however, as in Fischer-Fine, White can get a blistering attack. Black has other choices but 12...b5 13.Nxb5 =. If 12...b6? 13.Nb5 +/=



12...Bxc3 13.Qxc3
  
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sloughter
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Is the compromised defense in the Evans Gambit =?
02/05/16 at 00:50:50
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Here are a couple of games played against Deep Fritz 14:

Moody-Deep Fritz 14 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6. d4 exd4 7. O-O dxc3 8.Qb3 Qf6 9. e5 Qg6 10. Nxc3 Nge7 11. Ba3 O-O 12. Rad1 Bb6 13. Qa4 h6 14. Bd3 f5! 15. exf6 Qxf6 16. Qc4+ d5 17. Nxd5 Nxd5 18. Qxd5+ Be6 19. Qe4 Bf5 20. Qd5+ Be6 21. Qe4 Bf5 22. Qd5+ Be6 1/2-1/2

Moody-Deep Fritz 14 12...Bxc3 13.Nxc3 h6 14.Bd3 Qe6 15.Bc4 Qg6 16.Bd3 Qe6 17.Bc4 Qg6 18.Bd3 1/2-1/2

Black seems to be able to force a draw by repetition in all the key variations. If Black errs e.g., however, as in Fischer-Fine, White can get a blistering attack. Black has other choices but 12...b5 13.Nxb5 =. If 12...b6? 13.Nb5 +/=


  
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