I revised the notes given in Reply #7 a bit, so here they are again below in case anyone finds them useful.

Meanwhile, on reflection I’m not so taken with the Wells–Zhang Zhong line, which I’d forgotten Panczyk and Ilczuk mention, disapprovingly, saying that White’s pieces are even better placed than in the line I call ‘C4’. (They suggest ZZ should have played 19 …Rb8.) Still, it’s complicated stuff, maybe improvements can be found, and an unsuspecting White could run into a mating attack, as Mr Mista’s opponents found …

If anyone has any thoughts on Belov–Balashov (I b(i) below) but with 11 Bh4, I’d be keen to know …


*****


Old-Style Classical King’s Indian (7 …Nbd7): Main ‘Closed’ Lines

The chart below summarises lines after 7 ...Nbd7, omitting …Re8 variations, and ...exd4 variations except where advantageous for Black. The various ‘closed’ positions (i. e. those with ...c5 and d4–d5) have been labelled ‘C1’, ‘C2’, etc., in order to aid thinking about which might be more/less promising for Black.


I  8 Be3 →

(a) 8 ...c6 →

(i) 9 d5! c5 is C1, when 10 Ne1 is usual but White also has 10 Nd2, 10 g3, 10 Bg5, 10 a3 and 10 Rb1. Perhaps inferior to C2 and C3 for Black (as results seem to suggest), since Be3 is more useful for White than Qc2, which White might be able to omit. (In C4 below White is already committed to Qc2, but can play Bg5 in one move.)

(ii) 9 Qc2 Qe7 (9 ...h6!? 10 Rad1 Qe7 transposes below) →
– 10 d5! c5 is C2. White has all the tries he has in C1 above, plus 11 Nh4.
– 10 Rad1!? h6 (10 ...b6!?, Pelletier–McNab) 11 dxe5 (The threat of …Ng4 hinders White from maintaining the tension as he’d like; 11 h3 is met by 11 …exd4, provoking the less desirable Bishop recapture since after 12 Nxd4 Nc5 White’s options for defending the e-pawn are positionally unattractive) dxe5 12 h3 Re8 13 Rd2!? (13 a3 Nh5 14 Rfe1 Nf4 15 Bf1 Qf6 16 Nh2 Nf8 17 c5 N8e6 with counterplay, Dziuba–Sergeev) Nh5 14 Rfd1 Nf4 15 Bf1 Nf8, Δ… N8e6, … Ng5.
– 10 Rfe1!?. The dangers for Black here are well illustrated by the brilliant game Shulman–Ginsburg. But after 10 ...h6!? (10 ...Ng4 11 Bg5 Bf6!?, Arias–McNab), Black is threatening ...Ng4 as in the line above. There is also 10 …exd4 11 Bxd4 Nc5!? (Pinter–Tal; ‘=’, ECO).

(b) 8 ...Qe7!? →

(i) 9 d5 →
– 9 ...c5 is C3 (‘=’, Burgess in NCO), which is C1 with an extra move for Black, who scores well, albeit from a very small sample. Best now might be 10 Bg5!? h6!?; also 10 Ne1 (10 …Ne8, 10 …Kh8) and 10 Nd2 h5!?.
– 9 ...Ng4!? 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bd2 f5 (Belov–Balashov) may be fine for Black even though Panczyk and Ilczuk 2009 (p. 165) call it a bit better for White. But there’s also 11 Bh4!?, with c4–c5 intentions.
– 9 ...a5!? (Gislason–McNab), by analogy with IIb(ii) below, might be feasible.

(ii) 9 Qc2! c6 (acceding to C2, since 9 ...Ng4?! here is met by 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bh4! ±) → Ia(ii).


II  8 Qc2 →

(a) 8 ...c6 →

(i) 9 Rd1?! Qe7!? → IIb(i) (with 9 ...c6). But, 9 ...exd4!? 10 Nxd4 Qe7 is fine for Black according to Panczyk and Ilczuk 2009 (p. 162), e.g. 11 Rb1 Nc5 12 f3 Nh5! 13 b4 (13 g4 Nf6) Ne6, with typical counterplay.

(ii) 9 d5! c5 is C4, the worst-scoring ‘closed’ line for Black, who has to reckon both with 10 Bg5 and with 10 g3, 10 a3 and 10 Rb1. (10 Ne1 might be inferior after 10 ...Ne8, while 10 Be3?! Qe7 → C2.)

(iii) 9 Be3 → Ia(ii).

(b) 8 ...Qe7!? →

(i) 9 Rd1?! →
– 9 ...exd4 10 Nxd4 c6!, see IIa(i).
– 9 ...c6!?

(ii) 9 d5?! a5!? scores well for Black. (9 ...c5?! is not played, presumably because, though it leaves Black a tempo up on C4, it leaves him [after 10 Bg5!] a tempo down on C3.)

(iii) 9 Be3! c6 → Ib(ii)/Ia(ii).

@ kylemeister

Very interesting, thanks! But in the Pinter-Tal game, wasn't Black's eleventh 11 ...Nc5? -- at least that's how it appears in the three databases where I immediately see the game.

In the 8 ...Re8 9 d5 Ng4!? line, after 10 Bg5 f6 Panczyk and Ilczuk give 11 Bd2 Nf8 12 Ne1 and 11 Bh4 Nf8 12 Nd2 as good for White. But in both of these lines I thought there could be mileage in 11 ...Nh6, which they don't mention.

Unfortunately, P & I also suggest that White has a plus after the rarer 10 Bd2 (10 ...f5 11 Ng5; 10 ...Bh6 11 Bh6; 10 ...a5 11 Ne1), and to me this does look rather annoying for Black. I have, though, only just now noticed the alternative 10 ...c5!?, when, after 11 Ne1 Ngf6 12 Nd3, in a 2001 game Wells-Zhang Black came up with the remarkable plan 12 ...Re7!? and 13 ...Qf8, winning on move 32. Maybe this line has a good right to exist after all!?

I have played c6 and also Re8

Thanks. Yes, maybe there is always this 8...Re8!? that Yelena Dembo gave in DW Kings Indian. If 9.d5-Nh5, and her plan of: Bf8, Ng7, f5, Be7 (etc)  still seem to hold up pretty well ( the book  is from 2009).  To me it looks like there is also  9.d5-Ng4!? sicne the centre now is closed.

If 8...Re8 9.Dc2-exd4 and the rook stands well.

Im not so sure about 8...c6. Can`t white just keep the wating strategy with 9.Qc2, 10.Rad1 ( or 10.Rfe1) etc...? Maybe im missing some subtleties.

GG

Gut Gambit wrote on 02/18/16 at 21:04:51:


I have played c6 and also Re8

I notice that Nunn and Burgess, in a book from 1996, labelled 11. Bh4 c6 (well, 8...c6 9. Qc2 Ng4 10. Bg5 f6 11. Bh4 Qe7) as "risky."  They seemed to think White should play 12. b4, leading to += (but soon thereafter ± in a game Cramling-Romero).

I play the King's Indian old school style with Nbd7 too against the Classical and Fianchetto, and use the 1. d4 d6 move order to cut down White's options. I've never felt the need for much theory on it.

8...Qe7 and 12...c5!?, to bold to hold?


10-12 years ago I was very interested in the 7...Nbd7 variation in the KID. Mainly  because it was not so very heavy on theory, and also more positonal than the "one sided" Mar del Plata. But then the Benko gambit got in the way...

Yesterday these memories of KID came back to me, and I picked out from the shelf the Kramnik 1a by Khalifman ( 2006) to check some of the lines again. Especially one...
Then I consulted the bases, and... Nothing much had happend! In 10 years...





Obviously Im too weak a player to sort out  this complex variation. But it seems interesting from blacks point of view as a try to get the hole point. Im just hoping that someone else can share their thoughts... *

Best regards

GG