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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3 (Read 6398 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #14 - 03/05/16 at 12:05:06
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I revised the notes given in Reply #7 a bit, so here they are again below in case anyone finds them useful.

Meanwhile, on reflection I’m not so taken with the Wells–Zhang Zhong line, which I’d forgotten Panczyk and Ilczuk mention, disapprovingly, saying that White’s pieces are even better placed than in the line I call ‘C4’. (They suggest ZZ should have played 19 …Rb8.) Still, it’s complicated stuff, maybe improvements can be found, and an unsuspecting White could run into a mating attack, as Mr Mista’s opponents found …

If anyone has any thoughts on Belov–Balashov (I b(i) below) but with 11 Bh4, I’d be keen to know …


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Old-Style Classical King’s Indian (7 …Nbd7): Main ‘Closed’ Lines

The chart below summarises lines after 7 ...Nbd7, omitting …Re8 variations, and ...exd4 variations except where advantageous for Black. The various ‘closed’ positions (i. e. those with ...c5 and d4–d5) have been labelled ‘C1’, ‘C2’, etc., in order to aid thinking about which might be more/less promising for Black.


I  8 Be3

(a) 8 ...c6

(i) 9 d5! c5 is C1, when 10 Ne1 is usual but White also has 10 Nd2, 10 g3, 10 Bg5, 10 a3 and 10 Rb1. Perhaps inferior to C2 and C3 for Black (as results seem to suggest), since Be3 is more useful for White than Qc2, which White might be able to omit. (In C4 below White is already committed to Qc2, but can play Bg5 in one move.)

(ii) 9 Qc2 Qe7 (9 ...h6!? 10 Rad1 Qe7 transposes below) →
– 10 d5! c5 is C2. White has all the tries he has in C1 above, plus 11 Nh4.
– 10 Rad1!? h6 (10 ...b6!?, Pelletier–McNab) 11 dxe5 (The threat of …Ng4 hinders White from maintaining the tension as he’d like; 11 h3 is met by 11 …exd4, provoking the less desirable Bishop recapture since after 12 Nxd4 Nc5 White’s options for defending the e-pawn are positionally unattractive) dxe5 12 h3 Re8 13 Rd2!? (13 a3 Nh5 14 Rfe1 Nf4 15 Bf1 Qf6 16 Nh2 Nf8 17 c5 N8e6 with counterplay, Dziuba–Sergeev) Nh5 14 Rfd1 Nf4 15 Bf1 Nf8, Δ… N8e6, … Ng5.
– 10 Rfe1!?. The dangers for Black here are well illustrated by the brilliant game Shulman–Ginsburg. But after 10 ...h6!? (10 ...Ng4 11 Bg5 Bf6!?, Arias–McNab), Black is threatening ...Ng4 as in the line above. There is also 10 …exd4 11 Bxd4 Nc5!? (Pinter–Tal; ‘=’, ECO).

(b) 8 ...Qe7!?

(i) 9 d5 →
– 9 ...c5 is C3 (‘=’, Burgess in NCO), which is C1 with an extra move for Black, who scores well, albeit from a very small sample. Best now might be 10 Bg5!? h6!?; also 10 Ne1 (10 …Ne8, 10 …Kh8) and 10 Nd2 h5!?.
– 9 ...Ng4!? 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bd2 f5 (Belov–Balashov) may be fine for Black even though Panczyk and Ilczuk 2009 (p. 165) call it a bit better for White. But there’s also 11 Bh4!?, with c4–c5 intentions.
– 9 ...a5!? (Gislason–McNab), by analogy with IIb(ii) below, might be feasible.

(ii) 9 Qc2! c6 (acceding to C2, since 9 ...Ng4?! here is met by 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bh4! ±) → Ia(ii).


II  8 Qc2

(a) 8 ...c6

(i) 9 Rd1?! Qe7!? → IIb(i) (with 9 ...c6). But, 9 ...exd4!? 10 Nxd4 Qe7 is fine for Black according to Panczyk and Ilczuk 2009 (p. 162), e.g. 11 Rb1 Nc5 12 f3 Nh5! 13 b4 (13 g4 Nf6) Ne6, with typical counterplay.

(ii) 9 d5! c5 is C4, the worst-scoring ‘closed’ line for Black, who has to reckon both with 10 Bg5 and with 10 g3, 10 a3 and 10 Rb1. (10 Ne1 might be inferior after 10 ...Ne8, while 10 Be3?! Qe7 → C2.)

(iii) 9 Be3 → Ia(ii).

(b) 8 ...Qe7!?

(i) 9 Rd1?! →
– 9 ...exd4 10 Nxd4 c6!, see IIa(i).
– 9 ...c6!?

(ii) 9 d5?! a5!? scores well for Black. (9 ...c5?! is not played, presumably because, though it leaves Black a tempo up on C4, it leaves him [after 10 Bg5!] a tempo down on C3.)

(iii) 9 Be3! c6 → Ib(ii)/Ia(ii).
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #13 - 02/19/16 at 17:52:22
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Oops -- thanks for the correction.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #12 - 02/19/16 at 17:40:44
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@ kylemeister

Very interesting, thanks! But in the Pinter-Tal game, wasn't Black's eleventh 11 ...Nc5? -- at least that's how it appears in the three databases where I immediately see the game.
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #11 - 02/19/16 at 16:27:46
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Just a couple of thoughts:

The mentioned ideas behind ...h6 might have been lifted from Nunn's 7...h6 in the Gligoric from circa 30 years ago.

8.Be3 c6 9.Qc2 Qe7 10.Rfe1 puts me in mind of a game Pinter-Tal from the same era which continued 10...ed 11. Bxd4 Ne5 -- e.g. it was cited as equal in ECO and appeared in Shereshevsky's "Mastering the Endgame."  Tal had been on the other side of a similar position against Dvoretsky the decade before.  Of course these games resulted in two points for Tal   Smiley
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #10 - 02/19/16 at 13:18:20
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In the 8 ...Re8 9 d5 Ng4!? line, after 10 Bg5 f6 Panczyk and Ilczuk give 11 Bd2 Nf8 12 Ne1 and 11 Bh4 Nf8 12 Nd2 as good for White. But in both of these lines I thought there could be mileage in 11 ...Nh6, which they don't mention.

Unfortunately, P & I also suggest that White has a plus after the rarer 10 Bd2 (10 ...f5 11 Ng5; 10 ...Bh6 11 Bh6; 10 ...a5 11 Ne1), and to me this does look rather annoying for Black. I have, though, only just now noticed the alternative 10 ...c5!?, when, after 11 Ne1 Ngf6 12 Nd3, in a 2001 game Wells-Zhang Black came up with the remarkable plan 12 ...Re7!? and 13 ...Qf8, winning on move 32. Maybe this line has a good right to exist after all!?
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #9 - 02/19/16 at 10:38:48
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Quote:
Im not so sure about 8...c6. Can`t white just keep the wating strategy with 9.Qc2, 10.Rad1 ( or 10.Rfe1) etc...?


I think the point is that, in the line Ia(ii) in my previous post, after 10 ...h6 Black is strongly threatening ...Ng4, which is why White played 11 de de 11 h3 in Gyimesi-Smirin, as annotated by Mikhalevski on the ChessPublishing site. To this extent 8...c6 and 8...Qe7 are equivalent. White could play (and has) just 11 h3 iso Gyimesi's 11 de; but I suppose 11 ...exd4 now is considered adequate since, after 12 Nxd4 Nc5, with h2-h3 played White has to contort himself a little bit defending the e-pawn, which is presumably why he has normally chosen the otherwise less desirable Bishop recapture on move 12.

Quote:
To me it looks like there is also  9.d5-Ng4!? since the centre now is closed.


I took a look at this too recently! Could be a v. useful practical weapon (as potentially leading to a nice attack) even if White can keep a plus! I'll try to recall my thoughts ...

  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #8 - 02/19/16 at 10:20:22
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I have played c6 and also Re8

Thanks. Yes, maybe there is always this 8...Re8!? that Yelena Dembo gave in DW Kings Indian. If 9.d5-Nh5, and her plan of: Bf8, Ng7, f5, Be7 (etc)  still seem to hold up pretty well ( the book  is from 2009).  To me it looks like there is also  9.d5-Ng4!? sicne the centre now is closed.

If 8...Re8 9.Dc2-exd4 and the rook stands well.

Im not so sure about 8...c6. Can`t white just keep the wating strategy with 9.Qc2, 10.Rad1 ( or 10.Rfe1) etc...? Maybe im missing some subtleties.

GG
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #7 - 02/19/16 at 09:55:06
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Quote:
For now im bailing out with 8.Be3-Qe7 9.Qc2-c6, hoping for 10.d5-c5. Or if 10.Rad1, maybe 10...h6!?.


These are exactly the lines I've been interested in. So, a flow-chart of lines after 7 ...Nbd7, omitting ...exd4 variations except where advantageous for Black (and, for the moment, ...Re8 lines though I'm not suggesting they aren't interesting) might go something like as set out below. (I've labelled the various 'closed' positions [i. e. those with ...c5 and d4-d5] 'C1', 'C2', etc., which might help with thinking about which might be more/less promising for Black.)


I  8 Be3 and:

(a) 8 ...c6 and:

(i) 9 d5 c5 is C1 (a bit less good for Black since Be3 is more useful for White than Qc2? So this might be an argument for 8 ...Qe7!? ...)

(ii) 9 Qc2 Qe7 (9 ...h6!? 10 Rad1 Qe7 transposes below) and:
-- 10 d5 c5 is C2. Obviously White has a plethora of tries: 11 Ne1, 11 Nd2, 11 Nh4/11 g3, 11 a3, 11 Bg5 ...
-- 10 Rad1!? h6 (NB: McNab once played 10 ...b6!? here!)
-- 10 Rfe1!?. The dangers for Black here are well illustrated by the game Shulman-Ginsburg! But after 10 ...h6(!) (McNab once tried 10 ...Ng4 11 Bg5 Bf6!?) Black is threatening ...Ng4 just as in the line above.

(b) 8 ...Qe7!? and:

(i) 9 d5!?/?! and:
-- 9 ...c5 is C3 (Best now might be 10 Bg5 [10 Nd2 h5!?] h6?).
-- 9 ...Ng4!? 10 Bd2 f5, following a 1995 game Belov-Balashov, which to me looks fine for Black though Panczyk & Ilczuk 2009 (p. 165) call it a bit better for White (as they do almost everything else!). But, there's also 10 Bh4!?, with obvious c4-c5 intentions ...
-- 9 ...a5!? (Gislason-McNab), by analogy with IIb(ii) below, might be feasible?

(ii) 9 Qc2! c6 (9 ...Ng4?! 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bh4!) is Ia(ii) above.


II  8 Qc2 and:

(a) 8 ...c6 and:

(i) 9 Rd1?! Qe7!? leads to IIb(i)(with 9 ...c6) below. But, 9 ...exd4!? 10 Nxd4 Qe7 is a good line for Black according to Panczyk & Ilczuk 2009 (p. 161). [They think the same of 10 ...Re8, though 11 Bg5 scores well for White.]

(ii) 9 d5! c5 is C4, when Black has to reckon with 10 Bg5, 10 g3, 10 a3 and perhaps other moves. (10 Ne1?! might be inferior after 10 ...Ne8; while 10 Be3 could transpose to C2 after 10 ...Qe7.)

(iii) 9 Be3 transposes to Ia(ii).

(b) 8 ...Qe7!? and:

(i) 9 Rd1?! and:
-- 9 ...exd4 10 Nxd4 c6!, see IIa(i)
-- 9 ...c6!?

(ii) 9 d5?! a5!? scores well for Black. (9 ...c5?! is not played, presumably because, though it leaves Black a tempo up on C4, it leaves him [after 10 Bg5!] a tempo down on C3!)

(iii) 9 Be3! c6 transposes to Ib(ii)/Ia(ii).


My overall conclusion from this is that 8 ...Qe7 could be a useful 'transpo tool'! Looking forward to comments ...
« Last Edit: 02/19/16 at 14:52:38 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #6 - 02/18/16 at 21:24:48
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Gut Gambit wrote on 02/18/16 at 21:04:51:
What do you play against 8.Be3 then, if its not too rude?


I have played c6 and also Re8
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #5 - 02/18/16 at 21:04:51
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JEH wrote on 02/18/16 at 18:37:34:
I play the King's Indian old school style with Nbd7 too against the Classical and Fianchetto, and use the 1. d4 d6 move order to cut down White's options. I've never felt the need for much theory on it.


Ok, but maybe you will in the future  Smiley

What do you play against 8.Be3 then, if its not too rude?  You will meet it even with your move order. This 11.Bh4 idea of Nunn/Burgess seems like a though nut to crack.

Of course there is other moves, and all I want is to keep the Nbd7-system alive. Any ideas are welcome! From what i`ve seen  of 11.Bh4...

For now im bailing out with 8.Be3-Qe7 9.Qc2-c6, hoping for 10.d5-c5. Or if 10.Rad1, maybe 10...h6!?.

All the best

GG


  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #4 - 02/18/16 at 20:22:06
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I notice that Nunn and Burgess, in a book from 1996, labelled 11. Bh4 c6 (well, 8...c6 9. Qc2 Ng4 10. Bg5 f6 11. Bh4 Qe7) as "risky."  They seemed to think White should play 12. b4, leading to += (but soon thereafter ± in a game Cramling-Romero).
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #3 - 02/18/16 at 20:03:47
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Michael Ayton wrote on 02/18/16 at 00:48:00:
I've been interested in the 7 ...Nbd7 variation for a long time now, ever since someone here (I think it was MNb) pointed out you could play 2 ...d6, 3 ...Nbd7 and 4 ...e5, thus limiting White to this or to a fianchetto variation!

I like 8 ...Qe7 and I've mainly looked at the locked centre stuff with ...c5/d4-d5, as played by Gawain Jones -- will try to post something on this later. This 8 ...Qe7 9 Qc2! Ng4 line looks interesting, but can you or anyone else tell me how Black should handle things after 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bh4? Then 11 ...h5 looks too weakening to me (rightly or wrongly!), which I guess leaves 11 ...c6, but is Black really OK? Maybe he can slowly arrange some typical ...Bh6/...Bg5 manoeuvre, but it all looks a bit iffy ... Or am I being too pessimistic?


Funny about the timing of your post. The other day I was in the local club playing a black game in a very simillar position. An IM with quite some experience stated that: "the plan with; h5, Nh6, f5, and/or Nf7, Bh6 should not be played with a fluid centre. Once the centre is settled/closed, its okay".

Today I have searched but not found an adequate answer to your 11.Bh4. Im starting to think that "everyone" just followed the Korchnoi-Svidler game from 1997, including Khalifman in his Kramnik series. Maybe pepole just assumed that the bishop soon will be out of play from h4. Or easy captured.

The moral of today is that after: 11.Bh4-c6,  if white keeps the centre fluid he has far more good wating moves than black. White can go 12.Rfe1 and wait for blacks response. What can black do? I dont think black has a better waiting move than a possible whites next, namely 13.Rad1. And this is blacks problem, it seems. He doesnt really want to commit himself, but has to!

The plan with: Ng4-h6-f7 looks without punch because the pawn is not on h5.

The plan with 11...h5 seems very risky since the centre is not fixed.

The plan with 11...exd4 seems like bit of a confession, doesnt it?

So why is 11.Bh4 so seldom played? I dont know. And maybe its a problem variation for black even. 



GG
  
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #2 - 02/18/16 at 18:37:34
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I play the King's Indian old school style with Nbd7 too against the Classical and Fianchetto, and use the 1. d4 d6 move order to cut down White's options. I've never felt the need for much theory on it.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
Reply #1 - 02/18/16 at 00:48:00
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I've been interested in the 7 ...Nbd7 variation for a long time now, ever since someone here (I think it was MNb) pointed out you could play 2 ...d6, 3 ...Nbd7 and 4 ...e5, thus limiting White to this or to a fianchetto variation!

I like 8 ...Qe7 and I've mainly looked at the locked centre stuff with ...c5/d4-d5, as played by Gawain Jones -- will try to post something on this later. This 8 ...Qe7 9 Qc2! Ng4 line looks interesting, but can you or anyone else tell me how Black should handle things after 10 Bg5 f6 11 Bh4? Then 11 ...h5 looks too weakening to me (rightly or wrongly!), which I guess leaves 11 ...c6, but is Black really OK? Maybe he can slowly arrange some typical ...Bh6/...Bg5 manoeuvre, but it all looks a bit iffy ... Or am I being too pessimistic?
  
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Khalifmans Kramnik rep 7...Nbd7 8.Be3
02/12/16 at 16:43:52
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8...Qe7 and 12...c5!?, to bold to hold?


10-12 years ago I was very interested in the 7...Nbd7 variation in the KID. Mainly  because it was not so very heavy on theory, and also more positonal than the "one sided" Mar del Plata. But then the Benko gambit got in the way...

Yesterday these memories of KID came back to me, and I picked out from the shelf the Kramnik 1a by Khalifman ( 2006) to check some of the lines again. Especially one...
Then I consulted the bases, and... Nothing much had happend! In 10 years...





Obviously Im too weak a player to sort out  this complex variation. But it seems interesting from blacks point of view as a try to get the hole point. Im just hoping that someone else can share their thoughts... *

Best regards

GG
  
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